GMOs: Why would anyone think they're safe?

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51 Replies - 2466 Views - Last Post: 26 October 2013 - 01:55 PM

#31 h4nnib4l  Icon User is offline

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Re: GMOs: Why would anyone think they're safe?

Posted 23 October 2013 - 03:30 PM

I'll show you another bug.
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#32 GunnerInc  Icon User is online

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Re: GMOs: Why would anyone think they're safe?

Posted 23 October 2013 - 07:55 PM

I don't care if food is GM'd, just label everything that is so I have a choice! Sure, it can be a good thing, making rice grow with less water, or fruits and vegs grow where they where hard to before, but IMHO, it is all for the bottom line, get product/more product to market faster to make more money.
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#33 Rhino1111  Icon User is offline

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Re: GMOs: Why would anyone think they're safe?

Posted 23 October 2013 - 08:17 PM

Watch the documentary "Seeds of Death". GMO foods tested on rats showed quite crazy results in how unsafe they are. There actually hasn't been any major testing on the safety of GMO's, and governments/universities/etc refuse to fund research on them. The few times tests have been conducted (such as the GMO cotton vs Natural cotton on Goats(as a food supply) in India I believe it was), GMO foods were shown to cause death and severe internal organ damage on the animals.

The documentary is quite an interesting watch.
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#34 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: GMOs: Why would anyone think they're safe?

Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:26 PM

Seen the documentary Seeds of Death, hardly would call it a documentary. I love the numbers of 'movies' going around calling themselves documentaries now a days and prancing that out like their movie is now science.

There has been major testing of GMOs, but yeah, there should be more. Also which governments? From what I've seen a lot of governments in places like Europe don't like GMOs and laws are cropping up everywhere trying to ban them. Why would they not be funding this?

I'd love resources to these studies. Every study I've ever seen come out has either never been submitted to peer review, or when submitted was found to be bunk in some way (bad data, errors, lack of control groups, etc etc).




I used to be all anti-GMO, watched all these fucking "documentaries" about it, got really upset. Then I dug into the information.

You know what I came up with?

Monsanto is a cut throat company who strong arms people with their patents and lobby hard in the US government to keep their marketing up. Everyone else takes this rather nefarious actions of Monsanto, and instead of criticizing them for being cut throat, they instead throw up a bunch of speculation that the product they're making is super bad for you and that's why they're cut throat... but never hand over any sound evidence of it.

Sure Monsanto can be dicks. But that's not evidence that my tomato is going to kill me. And all those documentaries telling me otherwise never have any reputable sources at the end showing me the hard proof that what they said was true. Until then, not going to drink that kool-aid.

Does this mean that it's 100% safe? Do you think I'm stupid? Sure, I'm skeptical, but I'm skeptical to a sane degree.

That sane degree also includes understanding what GMO means. GMO is a host of all sorts of modifications. If a study does come out and proves that lets say round-up ready monsanto soy causes cancer because the gene it spliced in does this that or the other, and a concensus is made where the study is shown to be correct. I'd go, yep, round up ready monsanto soy is bad for you.

That doesn't mean GMO is bad for you. It means that specific GMO is bad for you, the study will point out what we did wrong, what exactly was bad for you. It's demonstrated the modifying our foods isn't inherently wrong, it just hasn't been shown that it's 100% safe... and it probably never will be. And there's always going to be all sorts of craziness and shitty companies/people profiting from it and all other sorts of chaos about it. But lets rather tear down the shit parts then tear down the entire idea.

After my digging around with the information. I still hated Monsanto, but I no longer allowed that emotion of mine to allow me to be gullible as well.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 23 October 2013 - 09:49 PM

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#35 CTphpnwb  Icon User is offline

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Re: GMOs: Why would anyone think they're safe?

Posted 24 October 2013 - 03:59 PM

View PostCraig328, on 23 October 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

Starving to death due to lack of food would rank much higher on MY risk chart than it seems it would for you.

Why does everyone think I'm talking about personal safety? That's the least of my worries here. Suppose (again, as an example or thought experiment) that genetically modified foods are killing the bees that pollinate them. Is it worth feeding some people now so that billions more can starve later? The experiments we're conducting by splicing insect DNA into corn for example, are far more likely to cause system level problems that could threaten our food supply and/or create pandemics than simple and natural mutations (including those from selective breeding) whose effects are most likely to be limited to the individuals with the mutation. Remember too that 50 years is only half a life time. It's still possible that "Winter" wheat can turn out to be very costly. Probably not, but that just goes to show how scary this is: even after 50 years of running this experiment, we don't know for sure.

View Postfarrell2k, on 23 October 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

Hold on here. Have GMOs even been demonstrated to be harmful?

Wrong question. That question is the one the cigarette companies used in order to obfuscate the issue.The real question is "Have they been proven safe?" Remember that GMOs aren't nearly as avoidable as cigarette smoke and they're potentially much more deadly.

This post has been edited by CTphpnwb: 24 October 2013 - 04:03 PM

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#36 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: GMOs: Why would anyone think they're safe?

Posted 24 October 2013 - 04:14 PM

I love your use of the word 'potentially'.

By your definition of potentially, we should have never invented the car, built skyscrapers, developed chemistry, built the computer, etc etc etc.
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#37 Craig328  Icon User is offline

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Re: GMOs: Why would anyone think they're safe?

Posted 24 October 2013 - 07:11 PM

View PostCTphpnwb, on 24 October 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

The experiments we're conducting by splicing insect DNA into corn for example...


Let's get this one straight (as I've heard this one trotted out more times than should be allowed): it's not insect DNA being spliced into corn. It's a gene from bacteria that kills insects. The gene codes for production of a protein that is toxic to insects but not to humans. Human metabolism doesn't consume the protein and it isn't retained in the body. And it's not just corn. It's been done for other crops and it's not new, it's been around for nearly 20 years.

The reason I mention this particular scare tactic is because it's contorted to sound sinister when what it's actually doing is allowing farmers to cut way back on their use of pesticides which, last I checked, were a PROVEN "bad thing". Pull the GMO products from the market over a boogeyman fear of a potential adverse affect and you return to the immediate proven adverse affect because we simply can't grow crops in the quantity we need to feed the world minus both options.

Advocating abandoning a method because of an imagined and unproven hypothetical issue when the alternative is a real and demonstrated one is patently foolish. It's a luxury a first world person has when the issues they're faced with regarding the acquisition of sustenance involves which flavor Doritos they want. Much of the rest of the world would love to have that be their primary concern when it comes to feeding itself.
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#38 mojo666  Icon User is offline

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Re: GMOs: Why would anyone think they're safe?

Posted 24 October 2013 - 07:52 PM

CTphpnwb, you are way off on a lot of stuff.

1. The notion that small mutations are "safer" than large splices is completely incorrect. There are a lot of genes persisting in organisms that are deactivated by a small mutation. So, a small mutation can reactivate that same gene. This is how we get things like humans with tails or dolophins with legs. It could be that in the past, corn thrived on generating its own pesticide to protect itself, but overtime variations thrived with that gene deactivated. Perhaps allowing pollinators was more successful than fending off attackers. Now a small mutation my reactivate the pesticide production and modern "organic" farming will spread this bee killing plant. Afterall, humans are better pollinators and we can't select against pesticide variations. It is even possible that a completely new feature arises this way through small mutations. A large splice on the other hand is highly unlikely to cause an unintended trait to emerge and even if it did, the plant is being monitored so that trait would be more likely to be observed and prevented from spreading. So, your "we don't know for sure" reasoning applies to everything GMO or not.

2. The issue you reference with the bees is not a "mistake in programming". The problem is not even specific to GMO's. Bee's are dieing off partially due to pesticides. In oregon (if I recall correctly) there was a major bee die off that was due to a landscaping company misapplying pesticides to trees. The only reason GMO's are involved is because crops are being engineered to be a pesticide. It is working as intended. This genetic programming is not a bug, it's a feature. Even if pesticides were not involved, bees would still be dieing off because pesticide is only one of many factors contributing to their endangerment.

3.

Quote

Wrong question. That question is the one the cigarette companies used in order to obfuscate the issue. The real question is "Have they been proven safe?"


Cigarette companies were wrong when they said cigarettes were not harmful. You know how we know? We showed that they were harmful. What if we couldn't show that cigarettes caused lung cancer? What would be the logical reaction to all the people claiming that cigarettes were harmful? What if another group of people claimed that the cause of lung cancer was car fumes? Should we just agree and stop smoking and driving automobiles? In this case when people ask if either has been proven harmful, are you going to retort "Have they been proven safe?"
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#39 farrell2k  Icon User is offline

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Re: GMOs: Why would anyone think they're safe?

Posted 25 October 2013 - 12:29 PM

View PostCTphpnwb, on 24 October 2013 - 10:59 PM, said:

View Postfarrell2k, on 23 October 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

Hold on here. Have GMOs even been demonstrated to be harmful?

Wrong question. That question is the one the cigarette companies used in order to obfuscate the issue.The real question is "Have they been proven safe?" Remember that GMOs aren't nearly as avoidable as cigarette smoke and they're potentially much more deadly.


It seems to me that the biggest objection to GMOs is that their changes occur in a lab instead of via the same means that people have been modifying plants, foods, and animals for thousands of years. It reminds me of test tube baby hysteria. If the changes are viable and produce better yields, why care how the changes happen? Evolution alone has been changing our food for as long as we have been eating it.
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#40 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: GMOs: Why would anyone think they're safe?

Posted 25 October 2013 - 12:41 PM

uh-oh, farrel2k isn't anti-gmo, time for me to go anti-gmo!

:P
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#41 farrell2k  Icon User is offline

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Re: GMOs: Why would anyone think they're safe?

Posted 25 October 2013 - 12:48 PM

View Postlordofduct, on 25 October 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

uh-oh, farrel2k isn't anti-gmo, time for me to go anti-gmo!

:P/>


Don't even bother. Haven't my last few threads demonstrated that I am always right and everyone else is always wrong, regardless? :P
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#42 BenignDesign  Icon User is offline

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Re: GMOs: Why would anyone think they're safe?

Posted 25 October 2013 - 12:51 PM

View PostCTphpnwb, on 24 October 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

View Postfarrell2k, on 23 October 2013 - 05:28 PM, said:

Hold on here. Have GMOs even been demonstrated to be harmful?

Wrong question. That question is the one the cigarette companies used in order to obfuscate the issue.The real question is "Have they been proven safe?" Remember that GMOs aren't nearly as avoidable as cigarette smoke and they're potentially much more deadly.


Let's switch this scenario a moment. You meet a girl. You are in a committed relationship with said girl. You're getting some bow-chicka-wow-wow on the regular. Why do you continue to do the horizontal mambo? Not because she's been "proven safe", but because she has not been demonstrated to be harmful. It's only AFTER the crabs invade your pubes or the warts appear on your genitals that you stop getting it on.

It's akin to saying that I MUST be pregnant because I haven't been proven NOT pregnant.

Oh, hell, it's Schrödinger's Cat! It's both harmful and not harmful at the same time!
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#43 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: GMOs: Why would anyone think they're safe?

Posted 25 October 2013 - 12:53 PM

Schrodinger's brown chicken brown cow? (say it out loud)
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#44 farrell2k  Icon User is offline

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Re: GMOs: Why would anyone think they're safe?

Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:05 PM

View PostBenignDesign, on 25 October 2013 - 07:51 PM, said:

It's only AFTER the crabs invade your pubes or the warts appear on your genitals that you stop getting it on.


If you're one of those really picky types who actually cares enough about that sort of thing...
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#45 h4nnib4l  Icon User is offline

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Re: GMOs: Why would anyone think they're safe?

Posted 25 October 2013 - 01:07 PM

I've watched farrell2k, lordofduct, jon.kiparsky, Craig328, and myself all agree on something in this thread. Who crossed the fucking streams?
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