"Singularity" + Mental Disorders

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#1 Lieoften  Icon User is online

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"Singularity" + Mental Disorders

Post icon  Posted 13 January 2014 - 09:55 AM

Hey guys, So i've been trying to find a good place to post this... i Guess here is as good as it gets.

So for the past month or so i've been writing a story that includes a "Singularity"--specifically one where its a human brain uploaded to a computer. Now--you may be asking "Why the frick is this guy posting this here?!"

Well, I posted this on 'reddit' (Which was my first mistake) hoping that I would get some serious responses (Second mistake), trying to gauge what people think would happen if a mentally unstable person uploaded into the Singularity. Most of the responses I've gotten from people have been from a well, non-technical aspect; "it would be bad.", "Shit would hit the fan." blah blah blah.

Now, I myself am a programmer, but I'm not exactly the best when it comes to technical issues... not to mention most of my knowledge is in web oriented coding instead of regular old C++ and such. so, coming from a programmers aspect; what do you guys think would be the worst case scenario in this... scenario...?

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Replies To: "Singularity" + Mental Disorders

#2 belgarion262  Icon User is offline

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Re: "Singularity" + Mental Disorders

Posted 13 January 2014 - 10:01 AM

Didn't we already have this question?
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#3 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: "Singularity" + Mental Disorders

Posted 13 January 2014 - 10:05 AM

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would happen if a mentally unstable person uploaded into the Singularity

I would figure it depends on the mental disorder, and what sort of computing system s/he will be housed. My guess - the mind would loose cohesion (because it lacks stability and would find a quick exit sink) and dissipate.


Then again Sid 6.7 was pretty cracked, but that's a wee bit different issue all together.

Spoiler



Outside of my need for a Virtuosity reference - this is your story, right? I would figure the aim is firmly rooted in this singularity meets screw ball, right? To be blunt - what's the point of writing a story if you need folks to tell you how your crux works?
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#4 BenignDesign  Icon User is offline

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Re: "Singularity" + Mental Disorders

Posted 13 January 2014 - 10:09 AM

*
POPULAR

It would be bad.
The shit would hit the fan.
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#5 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: "Singularity" + Mental Disorders

Posted 13 January 2014 - 10:35 AM

There's also this book: Accelerando by Charles Stross. It steps through that rabbit hole and makes a chair out of the warren's skulls. Though that might taint your process.

There of course is 'Lawnmower Man', the new Depp movie I reference in the other tread, the short story "Pretty Boy Crossover" by Pat Cadigan, the Slider's episode "Virtual Slide", and so on.

Typically folks view it ending very poorly, and would be very lonely.
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#6 creativecoding  Icon User is offline

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Re: "Singularity" + Mental Disorders

Posted 13 January 2014 - 10:42 AM

probably just operate not as designed?

severe retardation would be just an inoperable system incapable of mathematical formulas - let alone any sort of interface.

depression would be slow, grayscale, etc etc

I dunno what exactly you're trying to get.
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#7 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: "Singularity" + Mental Disorders

Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:52 PM

View Postmodi123_1, on 13 January 2014 - 12:05 PM, said:

Outside of my need for a Virtuosity reference - this is your story, right? I would figure the aim is firmly rooted in this singularity meets screw ball, right? To be blunt - what's the point of writing a story if you need folks to tell you how your crux works?


To be fair, most novelists to research quite a bit about the themes and central points of their fiction. That research could include reading up books on the topic to getting peer perspectives on it.

In the same respect at OP, you don't see any issue in not bring any information of your own to the table to spark conversation on the topic? What do you think would happen?

I'd also like to point out... mental illness as a general theme? Talk about trope-tastic.
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#8 Lieoften  Icon User is online

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Re: "Singularity" + Mental Disorders

Posted 13 January 2014 - 01:23 PM

View Postlordofduct, on 13 January 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:

In the same respect at OP, you don't see any issue in not bring any information of your own to the table to spark conversation on the topic? What do you think would happen?

I'd also like to point out... mental illness as a general theme? Talk about trope-tastic.


the Mental Illness isn't the a "General theme". it's just one of the subjects that has popped up in to the story.

I have various Ideas of what might happen;

1 ) General System Failure (Schizophrenic, manic-depressive, OCD) - The Uploads fail due to repetitive/unpredictable nature of their input.

2 ) God Complex - See Every Scifi Movie... Ever.

3 ) Uncertainty - Either the Upload doesn't know that they're dead, doesn't know that they've been uploaded (EG they think they're in heaven or hell). This one doesn't necessarily have to be Mental Illness related, it could just be situation related (How they were uploaded).

4 ) Hamster on a Wheel / Ghosting - The upload is successful, however after a short run cycle the "reset" to the initial upload and begin to relive the same scenario over and over again.

5 ) Rampancy - This isn't my idea. its from the Halo Series.
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#9 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: "Singularity" + Mental Disorders

Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:01 PM

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1 ) General System Failure (Schizophrenic, manic-depressive, OCD) - The Uploads fail due to repetitive/unpredictable nature of their input.

Well.. actually.. brain activity is less in key areas.. so that theory isn't really sound. Just because the behavior is erratic (outside the norms of society) it doesn't mean their brains are spiking all over the place.

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Significant Loss of Brain Gray Matter: Individuals with schizophrenia, including those who have never been treated, have a reduced volume of gray matter in the brain, especially in the temporal and frontal lobes.

http://www.schizophr...com/disease.htm


---
From my limited skim of what "Rampancy" doesn't that just apply to AI and not someone being uploaded?
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#10 depricated  Icon User is online

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Re: "Singularity" + Mental Disorders

Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:08 PM

"Reverse primary thrust, Marvin." That's what they say to me. "Open airlock number 3, Marvin." "Marvin, can you pick up that piece of paper?" Here I am, brain the size of a planet, and they ask me to pick up a piece of paper.
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#11 Lieoften  Icon User is online

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Re: "Singularity" + Mental Disorders

Posted 13 January 2014 - 02:32 PM

View Postmodi123_1, on 13 January 2014 - 02:01 PM, said:

Quote

1 ) General System Failure (Schizophrenic, manic-depressive, OCD) - The Uploads fail due to repetitive/unpredictable nature of their input.

Well.. actually.. brain activity is less in key areas.. so that theory isn't really sound. Just because the behavior is erratic (outside the norms of society) it doesn't mean their brains are spiking all over the place.

Quote

Significant Loss of Brain Gray Matter: Individuals with schizophrenia, including those who have never been treated, have a reduced volume of gray matter in the brain, especially in the temporal and frontal lobes.

http://www.schizophr...com/disease.htm


---
From my limited skim of what "Rampancy" doesn't that just apply to AI and not someone being uploaded?

I never said they failed because their was too much activity, i said they failed because they are repetitive and unpredictable. I've interacted with people who are severly schizophrenic as well as people who are out of their mind on drugs, and they have a tendancy to get into repeative loops on what they are doing, or attacking erratically. I'm not 100% how that would translate into a computer, but i'm assuming it that it would eventually terminate itself.

Not to mention people with Schizophrenia, Bipolar and OCD have an increased risk of suicidal thoughts, so they might realize what's happening, and just turn themselves off.

As for Rampancy, In halo all the AI are based off a human brain--they have a system that scans a brain into a computer and thus creates the AI. Most of those are off of dead brains, but in the case of Cortona (the main AI in the game) she was scanned off a living person. So you are correct and you are incorrect at the same time. A person is uploaded but not in the standard scifi format.
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#12 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: "Singularity" + Mental Disorders

Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:05 PM

I don't know about schizophrenia in a computer simulated brain. Schizophrenia is one of those mental diseases that comes with a documented and known neurological difference in the brain structure and chemical make-up. Wouldn't the simulation require to allow for such alteration? Why would we allow for that?

I also wouldn't call schizophrenia repetitive. If you're going to call the occurrence of symptoms repetitive, what about 'normal' brain function that happens habitually or "repetitively". I think about sex, eating, work, my memories, how much I like my cat, etc rather frequently.

Speaking of, why would repetitive break a system? Do you think such a simulation would allow repetitive activity to crash the system? Your example of upload failures has less to do with the system crashing, and more to do with the architecture of streaming data over a network. There are expectations the system has, and when those expectations aren't met, it assumes failure and crashes out.

The erratic behavior isn't inherently erratic, it's erratic relative to expectation. Now... that does lead around to that if your simulation of a brain is done so in a way that schizophrenia appeared unexpected, and the system crashes as a result... well, why did you design the damn thing to crash in such a situation? Unexpected crashing on the other hand... that's due more to systems being overloaded. Nothing about repetitive or unpredictable screams overloading systems.

I'd also like to say, how much a simulation are we speaking. You really have 3 options here about the simulated brain.

1) it's better at dealing with problems than the human brain - in which case it should be capable of dealing with schizophrenia at least a comparable level to the human brain, if not better.

2) it's comparable to the human brain - in which case, same as above.

3) it's worse at simulating the brain than the human brain - in which case... who knows what could come out of this. Being able to deal with schizophrenia is the least of your concerns... could it even deal with sentience?
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#13 andrewsw  Icon User is offline

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Re: "Singularity" + Mental Disorders

Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:14 PM

The singularity is quite far away:

Supercomputer models one second of human brain activity

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The most accurate simulation of the human brain to date has been carried out in a Japanese supercomputer, with a single second’s worth of activity from just one per cent of the complex organ taking one of the world’s most powerful supercomputers 40 minutes to calculate.

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#14 supersloth  Icon User is offline

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Re: "Singularity" + Mental Disorders

Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:18 PM

most of bungie's games have dealt with the concept of 'rampancy' where, unlike the scenario you posted, an AI gets so smart that it starts to break down and exhibit signs of mental illness. always found that concept interesting.

http://en.wikipedia....mpancy#Rampancy
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Re: "Singularity" + Mental Disorders

Posted 13 January 2014 - 03:24 PM

View Postlordofduct, on 13 January 2014 - 03:05 PM, said:

I don't know about schizophrenia in a computer simulated brain. Schizophrenia is one of those mental diseases that comes with a documented and known neurological difference in the brain structure and chemical make-up. Wouldn't the simulation require to allow for such alteration? Why would we allow for that?

I also wouldn't call schizophrenia repetitive. If you're going to call the occurrence of symptoms repetitive, what about 'normal' brain function that happens habitually or "repetitively". I think about sex, eating, work, my memories, how much I like my cat, etc rather frequently.

Speaking of, why would repetitive break a system? Do you think such a simulation would allow repetitive activity to crash the system? Your example of upload failures has less to do with the system crashing, and more to do with the architecture of streaming data over a network. There are expectations the system has, and when those expectations aren't met, it assumes failure and crashes out.

The erratic behavior isn't inherently erratic, it's erratic relative to expectation. Now... that does lead around to that if your simulation of a brain is done so in a way that schizophrenia appeared unexpected, and the system crashes as a result... well, why did you design the damn thing to crash in such a situation? Unexpected crashing on the other hand... that's due more to systems being overloaded. Nothing about repetitive or unpredictable screams overloading systems.

I'd also like to say, how much a simulation are we speaking. You really have 3 options here about the simulated brain.

1) it's better at dealing with problems than the human brain - in which case it should be capable of dealing with schizophrenia at least a comparable level to the human brain, if not better.

2) it's comparable to the human brain - in which case, same as above.

3) it's worse at simulating the brain than the human brain - in which case... who knows what could come out of this. Being able to deal with schizophrenia is the least of your concerns... could it even deal with sentience?



my rational behind the repetition destroying the simulation/upload is simple. I imagine it like this; picture if there were some way to install an OS via a record player. It would work fine for most records, but what happens when you get a skipping record? it would just keep uploading the same file over and over and over and over again.

I use this anology because well.. Its the best thing i can think of.

As for your scenarios... I really like the 3rd one... That one made me think... If you were uploaded into a computer that couldn't handle you being you, what would happen? I like that one a lot.

View Postsupersloth, on 13 January 2014 - 03:18 PM, said:

most of bungie's games have dealt with the concept of 'rampancy' where, unlike the scenario you posted, an AI gets so smart that it starts to break down and exhibit signs of mental illness. always found that concept interesting.

http://en.wikipedia....mpancy#Rampancy


Halo is a big inspiration for me on the AI subject (Along with Red vs Blue... which deals with a situation similar, an AI breaking down and going crazy, but not exactly the same).

sorry for the double post
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