I want to write some binary code

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40 Replies - 3633 Views - Last Post: 05 May 2014 - 01:50 PM

#16 macosxnerd101  Icon User is offline

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Re: I want to write some binary code

Posted 04 May 2014 - 11:40 AM

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Now that I think about it, I suppose the real reason is that I have experience with Excel VBA and I have no experience with any other computing language. Since all of my definitions were already written in Excel and since I understood Excel it was a no brainer to just go ahead and write the code in Excel.

That's all well and good, but that doesn't mean Prolog is lacking (and that you should imply that it's lacking). I want to point out as well that it will be much easier to pick up Prolog (or stick with VBA) than to try and do anything meaningful in a program written purely in binary.

As jon.kiparsky suggested, if you want to spend some time on binary, look at Automata Theory as well as logical circuitry. It should give you a good feel for what is going on.
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#17 Momerath  Icon User is offline

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Re: I want to write some binary code

Posted 04 May 2014 - 03:22 PM

First you say

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One possible response to my argument is that I'm just making up rules expressly designed to falsify Godel's theorems.

Then you say

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1. Sentences cannot refer to themselves

Thus showing you are doing exactly what you said in the first quote.

You don't have any concept of what a sentence is and your examples show that. But go ahead and waste your life trying to prove it false.
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#18 leibniz76  Icon User is offline

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Re: I want to write some binary code

Posted 05 May 2014 - 05:58 AM

View Postmacosxnerd101, on 04 May 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Quote

Now that I think about it, I suppose the real reason is that I have experience with Excel VBA and I have no experience with any other computing language. Since all of my definitions were already written in Excel and since I understood Excel it was a no brainer to just go ahead and write the code in Excel.

That's all well and good, but that doesn't mean Prolog is lacking (and that you should imply that it's lacking).


You're right and I was wrong. I apologize for making such a statement.

Quote

I want to point out as well that it will be much easier to pick up Prolog (or stick with VBA) than to try and do anything meaningful in a program written purely in binary.

No, I'm not writing my logical calculator in binary, I'm writing it in Excel. I just want to work with binary so as to find out how computers do what they do.

Quote

As jon.kiparsky suggested, if you want to spend some time on binary, look at Automata Theory as well as logical circuitry. It should give you a good feel for what is going on.


I've got Formal Languages and Machine Computing by Song Yan, so we'll how far that goes.

View PostMomerath, on 04 May 2014 - 03:22 PM, said:

First you say

Quote

One possible response to my argument is that I'm just making up rules expressly designed to falsify Godel's theorems.

Then you say

Quote

1. Sentences cannot refer to themselves

Thus showing you are doing exactly what you said in the first quote.

You're going to have to give more details because I don't see what point you're trying to make.

Quote

You don't have any concept of what a sentence is and your examples show that. But go ahead and waste your life trying to prove it false.

Since you obviously do have a concept why don't you go ahead and tell me what a sentence is.

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 04 May 2014 - 11:10 AM, said:

Of course it contains a subject and a predicate. The subject is "This sentence" and the predicate is "is not provable under PM".

Just as LP = "This sentence is false" has a subject and a predicate, "This sentence" and "is false". And just as p="My dog has fleas" has a subject and a predicate.


Every sentence has three elements. It must have a subject, a predicate and you must tell the computer if it is true or false. If you don't tell the computer which sentences are true or false, then it can't use the truth functional operators AND XOR NAND OR so as to move from unjustified sentences to justified sentences. Liar contains only two of the three elements.




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Since you understand why they're true, why don't you tell me why it is they're true and why do you accept as axiomatic


I'm not playing that game. Nagel and Newman have written a very nice book explaining the matter, I don't propose to repeat their work.
[/quote]

Nagel proved p is an argument from authority and hence a fallacy.

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You're the one asserting that the proof is fallacious. If you want to establish that, it would help your case if you showed that you understood the proof. So far, I see little evidence of that, so I see little reason to go any further.

That statement is not an argument.
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#19 astonecipher  Icon User is offline

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Re: I want to write some binary code

Posted 05 May 2014 - 06:11 AM

I believe this post started as a way for you to prove your intellect. You have since found that you are not the only one with a functional mind. If you want to learn to program in complicated fashions, go assembly. If you want further reading look at OS creation or build your own compiler.

My mother started programming using punch cards. There is a reason it is no longer done like that!

There are several sentences that do not follow your statements, regardless if you agree or disagree.
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#20 leibniz76  Icon User is offline

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Re: I want to write some binary code

Posted 05 May 2014 - 06:12 AM

Also, Jon, since you believe 'this statement is false' is grammatical, do you also believe 'Red is true' is grammatical? Why or why?

View Postastonecipher, on 05 May 2014 - 06:11 AM, said:

There are several sentences that do not follow your statements, regardless if you agree or disagree.


Why don't you point them out to me.
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#21 macosxnerd101  Icon User is offline

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Re: I want to write some binary code

Posted 05 May 2014 - 06:25 AM

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I just want to work with binary so as to find out how computers do what they do.

You'll find that the theory develops fairly quickly so that we can get away from writing a logic circuit for everything. Even if you've had a lot of low-level architecture, writing in binary is painful. If you insist on going that route, try Assembly language. It will serve the same purpose, as there is a one-to-one mapping from Assembly instructions to machine code.

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You're going to have to give more details because I don't see what point you're trying to make.

It sounds like you're making things up because you don't like Godel's work. I think that's the point everyone is taking away from this. You told us that, more or less, you're pretty much making up things. It doesn't exactly help your credibility. And I've yet to see a substantial argument from you. The statements "I don't like it" and "Why don't you prove why this built up theory is correct for me?" are not valid arguments. If you make a claim, the burden is on you to back them up. Certainly Godel's works are philosophical. However, we're not playing in philosophy world where we get to wager straw man arguments. Put on the mathematician hat and deal with it on that level.
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#22 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: I want to write some binary code

Posted 05 May 2014 - 06:37 AM

View Postleibniz76, on 05 May 2014 - 07:58 AM, said:

Nagel proved p is an argument from authority and hence a fallacy.


If I were making the argument that NN proves p, then I would be committing a fallacy. I'm not doing that, though. I'm asserting that there is a good book which will help you understand what you're trying to argue about so that you can either understand where your reasoning is going astray, or else argue about it more convincingly. Right now, you're not even arguing about Gödel, you're arguing about a parody of Gödel. And I agree with you on one thing - I don't like your parody of Gödel either. I do think that the real thing is much more interesting, and more convincing.


Quote

Quote

You're the one asserting that the proof is fallacious. If you want to establish that, it would help your case if you showed that you understood the proof. So far, I see little evidence of that, so I see little reason to go any further.

That statement is not an argument.


That's correct. It's not. It's my advice to you on how to pursue your work on this more effectively.

And I think that's about all I can usefully say to you until you show that you've actually understood what Gödel proved, or claimed to prove, and how he proved it, and why mathematicians consider it to be a sound proof. Once you've shown that you understand that, you'll be at the starting point: then you can start showing why it's wrong.

This post has been edited by jon.kiparsky: 05 May 2014 - 06:38 AM

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#23 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: I want to write some binary code

Posted 05 May 2014 - 06:42 AM

View Postleibniz76, on 05 May 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Also, Jon, since you believe 'this statement is false' is grammatical, do you also believe 'Red is true' is grammatical? Why or why?



It is syntactically grammatical, in that it applies a predicate to a subject. Semantically, it is meaningless unless I know how Red can be true - but there are several ways this could come about. Possibly you're asserting the faithfulness of your ginger-haired friend, or telling me that you've labelled certain statements with color codes to indicate their veracity. "You see those labels? Green is false, blue is uncertain, and red is true".

It would be meaningless to ascribe the truth value to the color, I think, but still that's a semantic failure, not a grammatical one.
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#24 NickDMax  Icon User is offline

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Re: I want to write some binary code

Posted 05 May 2014 - 10:33 AM

@leibniz76 - While it is perfectly possible to write in binary, for modern PC's it is a bit prohibitive due to compounding complexity of a modern PC.

Emulators are a good solution as you can strip away the OS level and interact directly with hardware. However modern PCs are still pretty complicated.

Might I suggest Micro-controllers. #1 you can still use emulators for the bulk of your research and #2 you get a simplified version of what is going on in a PC.

HOWEVER: While there is much to be learned in low-level programming what it DOES NOT DO is give you a very clear view of what is possible within programming a modern PC. Abstraction layers are extremely powerful and there is generally the idea that if you can't solve a problem you just need a higher level of abstraction - while this may not ALWAYS be true, very often it is. So just because it seems that something is not possible because the underlining system does not "support it" does not mean that the underlying system can not support some abstraction that CAN support it.
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#25 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: I want to write some binary code

Posted 05 May 2014 - 10:35 AM

Oh, I forgot to add this:

Posted Image
https://xkcd.com/468/

http://www.explainxk...p/468:_Fetishes
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#26 BBeck  Icon User is offline

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Re: I want to write some binary code

Posted 05 May 2014 - 12:15 PM

I'm no great philosopher but I'm pretty sure "G." is a sentence.

As in "What letter comes after F in the English alphabet?"

"G."

It convey's a complete idea. Of course, it's related to context.
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#27 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: I want to write some binary code

Posted 05 May 2014 - 12:23 PM

Then there's simple question "G?". You know when your partner runs afoul when his cover is blown and goes radio silent for more than enough time to start to worry. That, or your compatriot may be hiding in a spooky room and you are implying the question of if he is there or not.
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#28 NickDMax  Icon User is offline

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Re: I want to write some binary code

Posted 05 May 2014 - 12:27 PM

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One of my main ambitions in life is to refute Godel's theorems. They're so obviously false, I can't believe anyone believes them.


This literally made me choke! Classic comedy spit-take style!

While I have read various dubious interpretations and exaggerated claims associated with Gödel's works this is a first for me. Usually people attack the various conclusions drawn rather than the work itself.

As a mathematics student who worked though Gödel's proof I don't really think you stand much of a chance as Gödel was quite meticulous. He has, without out a doubt, done what he set out to do and no amount of wishful thinking on your part is likely to change that.

HOWEVER, what Gödel did is actually pretty specific. People often take various degrees of an anarchist view of the implications and I think there is plenty of room to refute various claims on these but attacking Gödel will be difficult.

In fact I would say that if you were successful you may find that you undermine a great more than just logic's rock-star's Theories. Indeed you may dismantle the very "mathematical hocus-pocus" on which they are based.

However, to the guy building this upon Excel I warn: Gödel was convincing enough to win over the worlds deepest thinkers. You plan to use Excel to refute him?

As a brilliant programmer one of the harder things I have to do is admit that the compiler is right. I can not tell you how many time I have been CONVINCED that my logic was infallible that things SO SIMPLE it could not possible be incorrect - the correctness of my program was self evident!!! And yet, the compiler (obviously programmed by a bunch of hacks) tells ME that it is WRONG!

I have honestly wanted to beat monitors with bats, I have yelled at the screen in frustration, and once or twice I may have hit something or another.

So far the score is something along the line of: Compiler - 45632, me 3.

I am not saying that it is not possible that you are right, but I can assure you that if you feel Gödel's theorems are, "so obviously false, I can't believe anyone believes them." Then you had BETTER check your assumptions because I can assure you that there is a 99.999999999999% chance you have made a mistake somewhere in your thinking. You MAY BE RIGHT - but chances are not good. Check your assumptions.

This post has been edited by NickDMax: 05 May 2014 - 12:27 PM

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#29 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: I want to write some binary code

Posted 05 May 2014 - 12:40 PM

View PostNickDMax, on 05 May 2014 - 02:27 PM, said:

...
As a brilliant programmer one of the harder things I have to do is admit that the compiler is right. I can not tell you how many time I have been CONVINCED that my logic was infallible that things SO SIMPLE it could not possible be incorrect - the correctness of my program was self evident!!! And yet, the compiler (obviously programmed by a bunch of hacks) tells ME that it is WRONG!

...
[/quote]

Reminds me of:

Quote

It's hard enough to find an error in your code when you're looking for it; it's even harder when you've assumed your code is error-free. - Steve McConnelL


Quote

Computers are good at following instructions, but not at reading your mind. - Donald Knuth

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#30 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: I want to write some binary code

Posted 05 May 2014 - 12:47 PM

View Postmodi123_1, on 05 May 2014 - 02:23 PM, said:

Then there's simple question "G?". You know when your partner runs afoul when his cover is blown and goes radio silent for more than enough time to start to worry. That, or your compatriot may be hiding in a spooky room and you are implying the question of if he is there or not.


All sorts of ways it can be a sentence.

"Hey, man, what key do you play Blackberry Blossom in?" "G."

"Hey, I think you're cute!" "Gee..."

"Do you speak Hindi?" "जी"

View Postmodi123_1, on 05 May 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

Reminds me of:

Quote

“ It's hard enough to find an error in your code when you're looking for it; it's even harder when you've assumed your code is error-free. ” - Steve McConnelL


Quote

“ Computers are good at following instructions, but not at reading your mind. ” - Donald Knuth


Quote

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place. Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are, by definition, not smart enough to debug it." --Brian Kernighan

This post has been edited by jon.kiparsky: 05 May 2014 - 12:48 PM

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