To the letter not the spirit

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54 Replies - 1523 Views - Last Post: 21 October 2014 - 01:20 PM

#1 Damage  Icon User is offline

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To the letter not the spirit

Posted 20 October 2014 - 02:36 PM

Some really interesting comments been made here "manga images depicting children lead to conviction" (I linked the slashdot article instead of the Ars one because i found the comments more interesting)

I'm not a loli fan myself but i feel this is the start of a reallly slippery slope, pressing charges over an entirely fictional medium...is the next logical step to ban violent movies because they show murders?

Also didn't realise that something similar happened in the states years ago "..2003 Protect Act, which outlaws cartoons, drawings, sculptures or paintings depicting minors engaging in sexually explicit conduct, and which lack “serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value". Seriously, thats the line, artistic values? It's ok to see little Janey getting gang-banged so long as you can view the angst depicted in the tree in the far left corner....

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Replies To: To the letter not the spirit

#2 rusoaica  Icon User is offline

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Re: To the letter not the spirit

Posted 20 October 2014 - 02:46 PM

I'm also against child pornography and i totally agree to punish child abusers to the highest extent of law, but i think this is a bit exaggerated. I mean, c'mon, just as a dude was saying on that site, drawing a murder makes you a killer? That's hilarious at the best.
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#3 depricated  Icon User is online

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Re: To the letter not the spirit

Posted 20 October 2014 - 05:30 PM

I think the difference is in what it represents. Drawing a murder is not substitute murder, while such manga is a substitute for child pornography. I'm sure there's no value to it - it's more than likely intended to be exactly that. I could see a problem if they had convicted over, say, possessing a copy of Evangelion because hey, Shinji rubs one out just off-screen in EOE - but that's at least vaguely relevant to the narrative. It still sexualizes the characters less than most American television sexualizes children.

But what amounts to the cartoon equivalent of Hustler Jr. is pretty cut and dry for what it is. I don't think it's a slippery slope any more than any other law already is.
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#4 Damage  Icon User is offline

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Re: To the letter not the spirit

Posted 20 October 2014 - 06:03 PM

I still reckon it's dicey.

"Whoa whoa that tentacle rape hentai you've got there is none-consensual, hands behind your back buddy!"

Plus if they're convicting over possession of what amounts to child porn...well if they're that convinced, shouldn't they be going after the creators and distributors as is standard for real life kiddie porn?
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#5 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: To the letter not the spirit

Posted 20 October 2014 - 06:40 PM

View Postdepricated, on 20 October 2014 - 07:30 PM, said:

I think the difference is in what it represents. Drawing a murder is not substitute murder, while such manga is a substitute for child pornography.


That's contextual. Drawing murder for you may not be substituting murder. Where as a murderer may draw murders as a substitute to entertain fantasies. Just as pornography is used as substitutes for actual sex.

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I'm sure there's no value to it - it's more than likely intended to be exactly that. I could see a problem if they had convicted over, say, possessing a copy of Evangelion because hey, Shinji rubs one out just off-screen in EOE - but that's at least vaguely relevant to the narrative. It still sexualizes the characters less than most American television sexualizes children.


Thing is, the article linked in the link to on slashdot doesn't say what images the 20 counts (10 that were actually convicted on) were for.

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But what amounts to the cartoon equivalent of Hustler Jr. is pretty cut and dry for what it is. I don't think it's a slippery slope any more than any other law already is.


Actually it's not cut and dry. Pornography can still be considered as art to some people. I have seen structured artistic critiques of pornography for its camera style, it's cultural impact, it's cultural reflection. Never mind pornographic styles that build on and imitate previously established styles. Takes for instance pin-up pornography, or cosplay pornography, or pornography constructed to look like classic French porno mags but with a contemporary flair.

Not saying this makes all pornography art.

Just saying this isn't cut and dry.

And it certainly isn't, as the judge says:

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"This is material that clearly society and the public can well do without. Its danger is that it obviously portrays sexual activity with children, and the more it’s portrayed, the more the ill-disposed may think it’s acceptable," the judge told the South Bank, Middlesbrough man.


I fail to see the correlation. This claim has been made about rock-n-roll, violent video games, violence and sex in movies/tv/literature/etc. And time and time again the numbers don't line up.

Again, I'm not saying this means we should put simulated child porn on the shelves of every book store and allow anyone from minors to priests to buy it.

I'm just saying it's a slippery slope of an argument. And constructing a law based on something that often allows for such emotional interpretations can result in miswordings of laws that could be misconstrued by judges who do interpret things like Neon Genesis Evangelion as being pornographic.

Less we get things like Lenny Bruce again, arrested and convicted for obscenity, because his rather lewd social commentary full of words like "nigger" and "spic" and "faggot" offends both an officer and a judge.




Instead of outlawing the ownership of this material. Restrict the production of this material. Only adults can buy it, and it can't be readily available in your general store... I would even dare say don't let it sold in stores period. Dang, stick warning stickers all over it! So those purchasing it don't construe it as being normalized and acceptable in general society. Just like when I watched "Faces of Death" as a kid, I knew that these things were BAD THINGS. But it was still entertaining!

But at the end of the day... no child was harmed in the making of that material. There is no victim. And to lock people up in jail for it is censorship, and the wording of the laws often allow for slippery slopes to appear.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 20 October 2014 - 06:43 PM

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#6 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: To the letter not the spirit

Posted 20 October 2014 - 06:54 PM

I'd also like to return to the substituting thing.

One thing I've noticed about the whole pedophilia... issue. Is that we often just ignore the humanity of the perpetrator. They're bad, they're monsters, they must be stopped at all costs. Often this is by force, violence, threat, and other extreme measures.

But often we don't bother to ask... why. Why do they exist? Where did this start? How can we stop it from happening before it happens? How can we, dare I say, help these people!?

I've known pedophiles of varying degrees. Age, gender, all sorts. The ones I've met either are so soft in the head that they have no understanding of social constructs and they themselves are 8 year olds mentally. Others DO know that what they desire is illegal, and is harmful, and is bad. I knew one who was oblivious to the wrongfulness of what they were doing, but they also were only attracted to teenagers, not prebubescents... which honestly, IMO, the law really should be making a distinction between. STILL ILLEGAL, but sorry, sleeping with a 16 year old is not the same as sleeping with an 8 year old. Nevermind the countless borderline shit where in some states a 17 year old and their 20 year old boyfriend are 'legally' considered sex offenders. (anyone wondering why the f*** I'd be acquanted with any, let alone 1, pedophile... I spent a lot of time around mental care facilities in my life, as well as very unsavory neighbourhoods)

Now, it could be argued that pedophiles are using FAKE loli porn as a way to self medicate.

It's like a methadone shot for a heroin addict.

It gets them through the day as a substitute for the real thing.

Now this doesn't make it good, doesn't mean we should allow it. But our reaction to finding someone with it is to... well... overreact and lock them up. Violence (if institutionalized).

Why not get them help? We found someone who possibly has a problem (shit, for all we know, they're just a dumb kid navigating the oddity that is puberty, and will grow out of it). We found them BEFORE anyone was harmed. Get them a doctor, let the doctor figure out what's going on here, and to deal with it appropriately and possibly learn a little something in the process.

Instead of just pitch-forking it across the world as Frankenstein's Monster strangles another lady in the barn.




NOTE - you may notice I'm a bit long-winded on this topic. As it is something I am very familiar with and have dealt with first hand, knowing both victims and perpetrators. I care quite a bit about the matter.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 20 October 2014 - 10:25 PM

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#7 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: To the letter not the spirit

Posted 20 October 2014 - 09:51 PM

The idea of punishing representations of evil as if they were the evil itself is just magical thinking, and always has been. If you have a picture or a piece of footage that is evidence of a crime, prosecute the crime. Banning things because they might make people think bad thoughts is idiotic.
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#8 depricated  Icon User is online

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Re: To the letter not the spirit

Posted 21 October 2014 - 04:14 AM

Note I didn't speak one way or the other about prosecution. Only that it's not a slippery slope - it's fairly straightforward to tell the difference between Bukkake Sluts 9 and Shortbus. Hence the "I know when I see it" argument.
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#9 BenignDesign  Icon User is offline

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Re: To the letter not the spirit

Posted 21 October 2014 - 06:28 AM

View Postlordofduct, on 20 October 2014 - 09:54 PM, said:

One thing I've noticed about the whole pedophilia... issue. Is that we often just ignore the humanity of the perpetrator. They're bad, they're monsters, they must be stopped at all costs. Often this is by force, violence, threat, and other extreme measures.

But often we don't bother to ask... why. Why do they exist? Where did this start? How can we stop it from happening before it happens? How can we, dare I say, help these people!?


Up until two years ago, I was a staunch supporter of the "burn them at the stake" camp. Then I started dating a man I had known for almost 20 years...someone I trusted completely with the lives, safety, and well being of my children. Our relationship was quite normal and happy until one random day at work when something didn't seem right. He wasn't texting me like normal. I'd text him and get no response. He called me from work that night to tell me that he didn't have access to his phone, but that he'd explain when he got to my place later in the evening.

I had no reason to suspect anything out of the ordinary. I had assumed his phone was lost or broken or stolen. Instead, he proceeded to tell me about the state police raid on his house where his phone, his tablet, his laptop, and his desktop were all confiscated in a search for child pornography.

I trusted this man so completely that had he told me he had been accused, but was innocent, I would have believed every word. I would have stood beside him in a courtroom and insisted on his innocence. But he didn't claim to be innocent. He came clean - child porn had been an addiction of his for most of his adult life. He kept trying to stop, but couldn't, and it had finally caught up with him.

That was the end of our relationship. He begged me to stick by him and god knows I wanted to, if only because he needed a friend in that moment more than he had ever needed one at any other point in his life...but being a single mother staring down the barrel of a relationship with a soon-to-be-convicted sex offender, I couldn't risk it.

I kept in contact with him for months afterward. I was terrified he'd try to kill himself. I still firmly believe he never would have harmed my children, it just wasn't in his nature to hurt anyone.

He started therapy and eventually opened up to me about his own sexual abuse at the hands of an older cousin when he was very, very young - around 4 or 5 years old. It was a heart wrenching story to hear, but it did nothing to change the reality of the situation. He insisted to me repeatedly that he would never harm a child. But every child in every one of those pictures was harmed - perhaps not BY him, but FOR him and others like him.

I had a very difficult time coming to terms with the situation, with someone who had been a close friend, who had always been there - for almost 20 years - and he was just...gone. It was as if he'd died, but we didn't get the closure of a funeral. The biggest adjustment for me was the sudden realization that not everyone who does something bad is a monster. All those inmates in the prison systems...they all have families and friends who are grieving every bit as much as their victims and the families of their victims. And it sucks.

But as for the topic at hand, while a cartoon depiction might be morally and ethically questionable, it's not harming anyone, and shouldn't be a jailable offense.
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#10 TheMightyUch  Icon User is offline

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Re: To the letter not the spirit

Posted 21 October 2014 - 08:46 AM

In my opinion

Society should be taking advantage of news like this rather than going on the "politically correct" all out offensive. The artist has openly expressed their mental illness and should have the choice to be taken into therapy or not.

Funny how some murderers have been sent to mental institutions because they were schizophrenic or whatever else, while pedophiles are being convicted and sent straight to the penitentiary where they will be raped/beat to death by angry inmates, possibly reliving their troubled childhood.

Society approaches this subject with too much hostility. If i were to be standing on the street corner and someone pointed to me and shouted "THAT MAN MOLESTED MY SON/DAUGHTER" I would probably be approached by some
Spoiler

bystanders and find myself in an extremely harmful situation.

not to bring a religious debate into the mix but I believe that if God can forgive that person for what they did, why can't we? Why shouldn't we help them instead of shun or destroy them? The reason why pedos aren't going away is because society doesn't see pedophilia as a mental illness. A schizo can come out an say "I am schizofrenic" with no fear for they would likely be taken with care and sent to help. If a pedo where to come out and say "I enjoy the thought of molesting children" it would best be done behind bullet proof glass because there is a lot of angry people out there who would jump at the first chance to beat up on somebody because most people wouldn't mind or would jump in.

I believe people are born as blank canvases and what they grow up to be reflects the childhood they experienced.
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#11 BenignDesign  Icon User is offline

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Re: To the letter not the spirit

Posted 21 October 2014 - 08:50 AM

View PostTheMightyUch, on 21 October 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

not to bring a religious debate into the mix but I believe that if God can forgive that person for what they did, why can't we?


This will be the last reference to religion in this thread. You believe in a god. Great. Joe Schmoe doesn't believe in a god. Great. It's irrelevant to the topic at hand. Any attempts to turn this into a religious flamewar will result in a member warning and closed topic. Any questions or comments directly to related to this post can be sent to me via PM. They will be removed from the thread.
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#12 TheMightyUch  Icon User is offline

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Re: To the letter not the spirit

Posted 21 October 2014 - 08:52 AM

View PostBenignDesign, on 21 October 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

View PostTheMightyUch, on 21 October 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

not to bring a religious debate into the mix but I believe that if God can forgive that person for what they did, why can't we?


This will be the last reference to religion in this thread. You believe in a god. Great. Joe Schmoe doesn't believe in a god. Great. It's irrelevant to the topic at hand. Any attempts to turn this into a religious flamewar will result in a member warning and closed topic. Any questions or comments directly to related to this post can be sent to me via PM. They will be removed from the thread.


Appreciated B9 :^:
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#13 Bort  Icon User is offline

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Re: To the letter not the spirit

Posted 21 October 2014 - 08:57 AM

A perfect example of this is the current celebrity pedophile scandals going around the UK. Anything else, innocent until proven guilty. With this, they are paraded in front of the media, portrayed as evil, soulless beings who are nothing more than perverted parasites on our TVs/radios.

Hell, half of the claims made against these people only came to light after it was announced that some people were being sued for this sort of behavior. Now, some of those very same people who cried for the news cameras as they told their terrible tales of being touched inappropriately by Jimmy Saville, or Rolf Harris, or whoever, are in the news again, being arrested for fraudulently trying to claim they had been abused.

One person claims it, and suddenly the mob is out, pitchforks, burning torches, and all.
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#14 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: To the letter not the spirit

Posted 21 October 2014 - 08:59 AM

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Funny how some murderers have been sent to mental institutions because they were schizophrenic or whatever else, while pedophiles are being convicted and sent straight to the penitentiary

Let's be clear here - schizophrenic and pedophilia are different things. It is not 'funny' how murder and pedophilia are treated different. It is not equivalent to compare a schizophrenic committing murder to a pedophile.

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Society approaches this subject with too much hostility. If i were to be standing on the street corner and someone pointed to me and shouted "THAT MAN MOLESTED MY SON/DAUGHTER" I would probably be approached by some bystanders and find myself in an extremely harmful situation.

I would disagree. I do not think that would be the situation. At best the police may be called.

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I believe people are born as blank canvases and what they grow up to be reflects the childhood they experienced.

Now I am confused. Is this tabula rasa philosophy extending to the mentally ill, or just those that are stuck in, and perpetuating, the cycle of sexual violence?
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#15 depricated  Icon User is online

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Re: To the letter not the spirit

Posted 21 October 2014 - 09:09 AM

I'm sick of people pretending that there's a normal.

You can't label everything a mental illness simply because it deviates from the way you think. So you don't get your rocks off to little kids, but Jim over there does. I'm probably into shit you're not - knives and hot wax, for instance, doesn't do it for most people. Am I mentally ill because it does for me?

Sexuality is a weird creature, and yea a large part of it is mental, but to say someone is mentally ill for enjoying something you don't is perhaps one of the greatest logical short-circuits I've ever heard of.

Now I'll say this: possession equates to action insomuch as it rewards and promotes action. Just like buying a sandwich at Chic-fil-A supports and promotes the suppression of equal rights, obtaining child pornography supports and promotes the creation of it.

Now such drawings are mostly harmless, but they do raise questions of ethics. My views on that topic will just lead to people getting their precious feelings hurt though - so suffice to say I don't think it ought to be jailable.

This post has been edited by depricated: 21 October 2014 - 09:10 AM

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