Constructive criticism

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#1 AnthonyMcqueen21  Icon User is offline

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Constructive criticism

Posted 22 July 2015 - 03:12 PM

I feel like some people on this forum think they are better than newbies who ask simple questions posting code or just simply contributing yes i know honest criticism is a good thing it make you a better programmer but you don't need to belittle someone who is new to this forum and who isn't on your programming level of expertise or ego. It would be nice to show some respect regardless of their level of programming experience just point them in the right direction not be rude. It may seem like i am ranting but i am just being honest im sure i am not the only one who feels this way. I know i am going to get heat from this from moderators and be sent somewhere else or get slammed on but i am speaking the truth no harm done that's all.

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#2 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: Constructive criticism

Posted 22 July 2015 - 03:15 PM

Have you considered sending the person you have in mind a PM and talk to them about it?
Have you considered flagging a post with the 'report' button and asking a moderator to talk with the person in mind?

Quote

I know i am going to get heat from this from moderators and be sent somewhere else or get slammed on but i am speaking the truth no harm done that's all.

Why would you think the entire moderating team would give you heat, ban you, or rip on you? That seems like an odd pre-post implication.
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#3 AnthonyMcqueen21  Icon User is offline

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Re: Constructive criticism

Posted 22 July 2015 - 03:18 PM

View Postmodi123_1, on 22 July 2015 - 02:15 PM, said:

Have you considered sending the person you have in mind a PM and talk to them about it?
Have you considered flagging a post with the 'report' button and asking a moderator to talk with the person in mind?

Quote

I know i am going to get heat from this from moderators and be sent somewhere else or get slammed on but i am speaking the truth no harm done that's all.

Why would you think the entire moderating team would give you heat, ban you, or rip on you? That seems like an odd pre-post implication.




I am just speaking my mind on this its not everyone its only certain individuals makes me feel like i am way over my head i thought this forum was open to all programmers regardless of experience.
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#4 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: Constructive criticism

Posted 22 July 2015 - 03:22 PM

My personal two cents - folks come from many different backgrounds, skill levels, communication abilities, etc... much like the real world. I understand not everyone is going to talk to me in the way I would preferably enjoy, so I give folks a bit of leeway as the internet tends to bleed out a bunch of the conversational queues normally in a face to face situation. Maybe they are having a bad day, operate in a world of sarcasm, or are just that good to back up any perceived snooty tone. Many different shoes walking different miles. If it's something egregious I will talk to them about it. If it's someone just being blunt, but not insulting then they might get a smaller PM about rounding someone of those edges off.

I am not expecting everyone to whitewash their personalities (nor should others expect this).

Being open to everyone is a two way street, right? Many voices, many walks of life, and many levels. You are not forced to engage in every single person, nor like them (or make them like you).

Again - if you have a specific problem with a user take the normal steps. Send them a PM and see what's up.. or report a post and get someone on the moderating team's input (this is why there are multiple moderators to balance opinions).

A last ditch effort is you can block folks from view in your profile settings.
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#5 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: Constructive criticism

Posted 22 July 2015 - 04:54 PM

Anthony: Looking at your posts I don't see as anyone has been rude to you. Frankly I figured *I* was probably one of the people you were talking about because its fairly common for people to confuse my frankness with rudeness. Then I saw none of your threads seem to be coding questions. Unless I missed one. And I pretty much stay out of Corner Cubical and Discussion Lounge areas. So a sigh of relief. They all seem to be "How do I get a job as a developer?" kinda questions. General discussion stuff. And in general discussions people have more leeway about personal opinions, and generally take a more emotional or opinionated stance.

Code questions tend to be a bit more analytical. If you're making your observation based on general discussion area threads I think you might be getting a myopic view of the people here. Take a look at the coding help threads and I think you'll see far more helpfulness and less bickering than in the general discussion areas.

Also, looking at your posts I'd guess English is not your first language. Is it possible that you're reading too much into the posts or that something is being lost in translation?

This post has been edited by tlhIn`toq: 23 July 2015 - 07:27 AM

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#6 AnthonyMcqueen21  Icon User is offline

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Re: Constructive criticism

Posted 22 July 2015 - 05:26 PM

View PosttlhIn`toq, on 22 July 2015 - 03:54 PM, said:

Anthony: Looking at your posts I don't see as anyone has been rude to you. Frankly I figured *I* was probably one of the people you were talking about because its fairly common for people to confuse my frankness with rudeness. Then I saw none of your threads seem to be coding questions. Unless I missed one. And I pretty much stay out of Corner Cubical and Discussion Lounge areas. So a sigh of relief. They all seem to be "How do I get a job as a developer?" kinda questions. General discussion stuff. And in general discussions people have more leeway about personal opinions, and generally take more a more emotional or opinionated stance.

Code questions tend to be a bit more analytical. If you're making your observation based on general discussion area threads I think you might be getting a myopic view of the people here. Take a look at the coding help threads and I think you'll see far more helpfulness and less bickering than in the general discussion areas.

Also, looking at your posts I'd guess English is not your first language. Is it possible that you're reading too much into the posts or that something is being lost in translation?


English is my first language and yeah my question might seem boring or bland to most programmers but i ask cause i would like some input from experience programmers i may not have much analytical skill as most but i try and i ask. In addition Like the old saying you cant please everyone i guess that same logic doesn't go with this forum. but damn i am trying to communicate to the best of my ability i DON'T need pity for my lack of experience i just want to be a apart of a community.
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#7 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: Constructive criticism

Posted 22 July 2015 - 05:38 PM

Quote

In addition Like the old saying you cant please everyone i guess that same logic doesn't go with this forum.

To be fair I think you made half my point - the forum, much like life, you can't please everyone. You will meet people who have different tones, experiences, and communication styles that you may not like or would like to see changed but that is a little unrealistic to try to make them communicate the way you want, right? I would be concerned if everyone pleased everyone 100% of the time.

If something egregious transpires there are avenues of the report button or PMing someone.

Outside of that I would advocate appreciating the vast variety of perspectives and personalities with more realistic skin thickness.
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#8 astonecipher  Icon User is offline

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Re: Constructive criticism

Posted 22 July 2015 - 10:08 PM

I would mimic what has been said, at the same time this is a new world you are joining, being a developer not just this site. In my experience, and I have known programmers for the better part of 30 years now, they (we) tend to be blunt, sarcastic, and dark when interacting with others. This says nothing about the people we talk to but, the general lifestyle.

We come from varied backgrounds but the dynamic seems to be the same. Some are more friendly and sugar coat more than others. Some of us come from military or time sensitive corporate backgrounds where direct is the most efficient and that trait sticks. There is also a far cry from holding someones hand and expecting them to do some work on their own. People get stuck no matter how long you have been doing this. We come here because we want to not to tutor someone (for free) that is to lazy to ask a professor, look at the documentation, or think for themselves.

While some members may go overboard, you don't know what their days are like or their general nature. I have been accused of being an ass on the internet. I am more so in person, but it is usually confused with direct and to the point. Thick skin is required in life, I don't agree with coddling adults and if they cannot handle it from a computer screen, they really won't be able to handle it when a BA or team lead is breathing down their neck when a deadline is looming and they are lost because they copied and pasted code from the internet instead of learning how things worked.

As far as being slammed, you brought something up you were noticing. I see harsh comments on posts, but I also look through the histories. I have been harsh to a few "new" members, the reason? They showed a propensity for doing nothing and drawing what they could until they got their code fixed; Not understood the problem and corrected it but, were given the corrected code. I disagree with that. It means I may have to work with a developer that is incompetent and I will likely be doing their work as well as mine.
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#9 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: Constructive criticism

Posted 23 July 2015 - 07:11 AM

*
POPULAR

I'm going to switch gears here - sort of. Most of your threads have been about "how do I get employed", then this one that basically is saying "I'm seeing snarky responses and not getting answers." Those aren't your exact words, but more the tone and boiled-down content of the messages. So let's address the heart of the matter.

We can't tell you what you need to do to get hired. But I think we all have some advice about what *not* to do that might be getting you eliminated from consideration.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not trying to attack you: You wanted constructive criticism and you're getting it. I'm not going out of my way to beat on you, but to point out things you might want/need to address to increase your hireablity. No this isn't going to sound like a love letter. Don't take it personally. I don't know you from Adam and I have no emotional investment in you, good or bad. Its just an honest letter of observations and suggestions. The real world is tough and not here with the express purpose to be to protect the individual ego. This post probably won't be popular and I accept that I'm going to get bashed on for not blowing rainbows up your kilt and sounding like your own person cheer squad. The words may be hard to hear, but I hope you recognize they come from a place of wanting to help you.

Recognize that job hunting is a competition. You get a job not by presenting yourself, but by beating out everyone else applying for that same job. How many people graduated in your class? Now multiply that by the number of schools that graduated people this same year. Now multiply that by 3 for 'this year', 'last year', 'year before' - because all those students are still rookies looking at the same jobs you are. Now add in everyone that learned on their own and not in schools (the home-schooled if you like). There are at least 100 people all interviewing for the same job you are: What are you doing to make yourself stand above the crowd?

Interviewers aren't your buddies.
You do realize that interviewers aren't there to be your friends, right? Do you think they are there to see if you qualify and to hire you? They're not. They are there to find a reason to NOT hire you. Their job is to find your flaws. They are supposed to eliminate everyone for any reason until they are left only with applicants that they couldn't eliminate. Those are the qualified people that they would want to hire and be willing to invest $100,000 into knowing they won't see a return on that investment during the first year. They will eliminate you for any reason they can. If you smell of tobacco and are applying at a non-smoking office. If you are deep in debt applying to a company that worries about industrial espionage. If the company has 25 rookies and need a couple more senior people, you don't fit the need. If you smell of B.O. and are hard to sit near. If the company is very pro-gun-control and you wear an NRA tie tack on the interview. When all other skill and education factors are equal as they are with recent graduates, then it comes down to a question of how well you mesh with the other staff. The interview is their first impression of you giving your best presentation of yourself. The interviewer knows this is the best you will every be. This is the first date; its all down-hill from here.

A portfolio.
If you can't show what you've done so far or what you are capable of, but someone else can, then they have an edge. Not only can they show what they can do, but they have shown they go the extra mile to assemble that presentation. So if you haven't built a portfolio so far then you need to. Don't use your school work: Everyone else has put their homework mortgage calculator on their resume. Find something else that is different. Build a web site for your back yard as if it were a resort. Its just a coding exercise. Make it skinable. Make an on-line calendar your family can use to reserve the BBQ, or the trampoline. Make a mobile app that ties in. Etc. etc. Sure its all whimsical but that's not a bad thing. If you can make that and show it to someone then you have shown you could do the same thing for them. If you can't do it, then you have found an area in which you need to study more. Donate your time to some local charity. Make programs for the homeless soup kitchen to help them with inventory control or whatever. Not only will it do some good in your community but it will give you something on your portfolio and give you some practice at making real-world robust programs and show you in a good light to interviewers. Does your son's chess club need a statistics tracking program? Etc. etc.

College v. real-world skill.
While having a BA seems to be a requirement for getting hired in 75% or more of most coding jobs these days (to make the HR department happy), the project managers don't actually think highly of recent graduates. That's just life, get over it. Graduates have no real idea about how to make software, how to work in a team environment, how to use source control and so on. If you thought your college course was about job preparation you're wrong. College is in the business of selling you course credits: That's their business model. So the knowledge you gained in 4 years of school was readily available on-line and in books for about 9 months of effort and the technical people interviewing and testing you know that. Since you've gotten out of school you NEED to be doing only two things: [1] Looking for work. [2] Working on your skill-set to get it up to par with real-world needs. If you are just sitting around waiting for interviews and not working on skills then consider applying at Starbucks for a barista job.

Presentation.
You may not be aware (as many people don't realize this) but employers scour through your social life. They will comb through your credit history, your Facebook pages, your personal web site if you have one, your postings here and on other forums, etc. etc. You're applying for a technical job; you have to expect they are going to follow up on your technical skills. If your resume says you're an expert in xyz but they see 100 questions on sites such as this asking basic questions then they are going to know you're lying. So you need to scrub through your public social life and make sure there is nothing there that will keep you out of the running for a job.

Presentation. Part B
The second part of that is going to be your writing skills. The interviewers first interaction with you is in writing. Your resume and cover letter is their first impression of you. It is also a skill they will make use of throughout your tenure at the company. Sorry if this hurts your feelings but your writing here is about on par with a 10th grader. Let's be honest: I thought English wasn't your native language so what does it say to interviewers? Nobody hiring for a job at this level is going to be happy with it - If what they see is close to what you've shown here. Developers have to write documentation as part of the job. They have to work closely with clients. They have to convey themselves well in writing with coworkers. As a 50 year old I can tell you that we see it more and more as younger and younger people enter the work force. I think its primarily due to text messages, Tweets and so on. Graduates today think T9 leet-speak is normal and expressing themselves with emoticons is acceptable in the workplace. Realize that the guy interviewing you may be closer to my age than yours. If you want to appeal to him then talk and write more like your father than yourself. I've said this to others and commonly heard back "but i right different 4 wurk". Yeah, right. Maybe some do but in my experience if someone can't bother to hit the shift key when they type 'i' in a forum post they aren't going to do it in internal emails. If they are prone to massive run-on sentences with no punctuation in posts, they are going to do it in client email or program instructions. If they can't use "your/you're" and "to/too/two" correctly here they can't use it correctly elsewhere. At the very least laziness in public posts shows a predisposition to only doing the minimum requirement for a given task. Nobody wants to hire someone with that work ethic. Make an effort to show 150% pride in everything and anything a prospective employer might see - Including your on-line/social media presence.


Just so you know
When I look at your posts as a whole, I see someone that either: Doesn't make an effort *or* isn't suited to the job. I don't say this to be mean. I say this to let you know what a stranger sees when they look at the body of your work. My intent is not to tear you down, but to let you know how you present yourself so you can do something about it. If this is what I see, then its not unreasonable to think someone else (say a job recruiter, or perspective interviewer) might see. You have a post saying you are confused by git so can someone walk you through it. That's not a good sign. A system used by millions, with hundreds of on-line tutorials, designed to be at least somewhat user-friendly. If I look at this thread from the perspective of someone considering you for a job then my doubts are:
  • If this person can't get an basic grasp on git with all the documentation out there, what are the odds they can read a sparse API doc and use it? Or what about reading another team member's code with no documentation?
  • Are they even trying? As soon as they were confused they wanted to be taken by the hand and walked through. I don't see any mention of the dozen tutorials they tried on their own, or hours spent trying that should have resulted in more specific questions. Maybe they can only learn and test well in school but can't apply their schooling to the real world. Or maybe they think their first job is an extension of school and its our job to school them.
You have a few posts whining about how tough it is to get a job. And yes, they do read like whining to me at any rate, so as an interviewer I would have to wonder. Viewed through the lens of an interviewer it makes me wonder if you did any research into the companies, did you compare the job requirements to your skills, did you bother to read some books on building better resumes, have you worked through some interviewing skills workshops/books? They sound like you are unfamiliar with the hiring process and the work-world in general. I would wonder if my company would be your entrance into the adult world of work.

Now keep in mind - these are all my takes on you through nothing more than a few posts here on a board. 100 different people would interpret them 100 different ways. They don't take into account actually talking with you. They don't take into account seeing you in person. They don't take into account anything you could show me at an interview. I don't see what your responses are to coding problem scenarios during the interview process. They don't take into account 99% of everything else that matters. They aren't offset by your school records, job history, letters of recommendation. I could very easily have misjudged you in every way possible - and in all honestly I probably have. But isn't that where you stand when you first apply for a job and all they have is your resume and maybe your cover letter? Those writings determine if you are the first or 500th interview of if you get on the schedule at all.

This post has been edited by tlhIn`toq: 23 July 2015 - 07:22 AM

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#10 astonecipher  Icon User is offline

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Re: Constructive criticism

Posted 23 July 2015 - 07:56 AM

I see several posts you started about getting a job, or this career path, but I thought you had been hired as a developer by a company?
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#11 no2pencil  Icon User is offline

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Re: Constructive criticism

Posted 23 July 2015 - 08:17 AM

View PosttlhIn`toq, on 23 July 2015 - 10:11 AM, said:

...


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This is an incredible write up, & will serve as great advice to anyone looking to get into any industry.
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#12 AnthonyMcqueen21  Icon User is offline

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Re: Constructive criticism

Posted 23 July 2015 - 08:43 AM

View Postastonecipher, on 23 July 2015 - 06:56 AM, said:

I see several posts you started about getting a job, or this career path, but I thought you had been hired as a developer by a company?


I am i start next month but i guess getting put down just for asking simple questions is to low for developers do i not have an opinion on things what is the problem here ?
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#13 macosxnerd101  Icon User is online

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Re: Constructive criticism

Posted 23 July 2015 - 08:44 AM

Where have you been put down? If there is a problem, we would like to address it. Please point us to examples so we can address the issue.
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#14 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: Constructive criticism

Posted 23 July 2015 - 08:47 AM

I am a little confused on that last line. Is there punctuation missing to help with clarity?

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i guess getting put down just for asking simple questions

Hopefully I am not pulling something out of context by grabbing this line of words, but where? Is there a link you can PM me or use the 'report' button to flag?
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#15 no2pencil  Icon User is offline

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Re: Constructive criticism

Posted 23 July 2015 - 08:50 AM

I'm beginning to think that not kissing ass is being misconstrued as member assault / abuse.

@AnthonyMcqueen21 :
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