is degree worth to get it?

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120 Replies - 8279 Views - Last Post: 06 October 2017 - 06:54 PM

#31 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: is degree worth to get it?

Posted 24 May 2016 - 06:30 PM

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View Postxclite, on 24 May 2016 - 05:06 PM, said:

View Postdday9, on 24 May 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

For what it's worth... when I interview with potential employees, at the very end I do the same thing. I sit there, look them in the eye, and tell them "I'm sorry, you seem like a great person but I just don't see <insert position> material in you."

Haha some asshole tries this on me and I'm laughing my way out the door. I don't have time for stupid games. You want to know how I'm going to fit in your organization, don't try to bait me into a discussion that isn't relevant to my skillset and that would only serve to infuriate me in the office day-to-day as well. If that's the culture of your workplace, I don't want to be there anyway - I'm here to work, not indulge somebody's idea of a personality test.


Exactly this. This is the response of a skilled developer to bullshit mind games of the sort described.

dday9, what you don't seem to realize is that employers in the tech sector really want to hire good talent, and they have pretty good ways of finding out whether talent is any good, so they don't have to resort to stupid tricks. If I want to know whether someone understands databases, I ask them questions about databases. If someone wants to know whether I understand the algorithmic complexity of some function I write, they can ask me questions which will reveal my understanding. And since we're talking about code, we learn, as a side effect, what it's like to talk to each other about code, and we decide whether we enjoy that.

Your technique, and I hope you'll pardon me for saying so, indicates that either there's no way to actually know whether the people you're hiring are any good at their job (which may be true, if you're talking about sales) or you're actively looking to hire assholes (which again, may be true since you're talking about sales)

Neither of those scenarios generally applies when it comes to hiring programmers.
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#32 astonecipher  Icon User is offline

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Re: is degree worth to get it?

Posted 24 May 2016 - 06:43 PM

I understand various ways people go about hiring. Many times, programmers are hired by people that have know idea what the job actually entails. I also understand different sectors approach the process differently, sales is a whole nother animal! From experiencing that field, I also know the only way to test them, is to try them out.

This has turned less about needing a degree and more on how we differ from other industries.
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#33 xclite  Icon User is offline

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Re: is degree worth to get it?

Posted 25 May 2016 - 04:30 AM

I bet the realtor I fired yesterday would approve of dday9's strategy.
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#34 no2pencil  Icon User is offline

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Re: is degree worth to get it?

Posted 25 May 2016 - 04:59 AM

Did you stare at them (longingly), straight in the eyes, before doing so? Of course not, you're not a creeper.
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#35 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: is degree worth to get it?

Posted 25 May 2016 - 06:06 AM

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View Postdday9, on 24 May 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

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For what it's worth... when I interview with potential employees, at the very end I do the same thing. I sit there, look them in the eye, and tell them "I'm sorry, you seem like a great person but I just don't see <insert position> material in you." and those who fight back are the ones that I hire. I can't tell you how many people I get say "OK well if anything changes....", I don't want them. They only way something will change is if they get the kahunas to fight back and tell my why they're exactly <insert position> material.


... ugh

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Say what you want and imply that I am a bad manager, but my sales reflect that I have the right people in my office.

It's worth mentioning that I did make an exception because I needed someone and so I went with my gut. When it came to said employee to pull his weight… he couldn't close. He was afraid that if we weren't the lowest price that we are not a fit for that person we're quoting; basically he could only close on price not on the features of our policies. We addressed it, tried giving him training, and gave him positive feedback but he ultimately left because I structure pay based on performance and he couldn't perform.


OH, you hire sales people.

That explains your horrible hiring process.

I love when sales people, and sales manager, think that the way they run their ego-maniacal sales job is the same way the rest of us should do it.

Sorry brah, those who can, do; those who can't, teach; those with no skill set whatsoever aside from a fat mouth, sell.
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#36 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: is degree worth to get it?

Posted 25 May 2016 - 06:22 AM

As for OP's question...

Why such a lack of effor?
Why is this question always so simplistic, with little effort added, and more annoyingly the OP always disappears once it is posed?

And also... what do you think the necessity is? I mean srsly, you're talking about a job that requires a high level of skill and/or training... what do you think the answer is!?



note - I do not have a degree
And it was hard as balls to fight my way up the job ladder
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#37 dday9  Icon User is offline

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Re: is degree worth to get it?

Posted 25 May 2016 - 06:33 AM

Y'all are really berating my hiring style, to be honest I don't give a shit because like I said... I know it works for my office, but y'all are missing my point.

What I was trying to tell the OP that if an interviewer tells him no, that it doesn't always mean no. He needs to fight back, reiterate to the interviewer why you are the person for the job. "I wanted to remind you that I was the guy who setup ... which makes me uniquely qualified for this position" or "I have done ... in the past and I think that my prior experience would propel me into ... here."

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Sorry brah, those who can, do; those who can't, teach; those with no skill set whatsoever aside from a fat mouth, sell.

Is that why salesmen are the richest people in the world? They the ones willing to take risks and put their livelihoods at stake in order to make better money then those who decided to take the easy way out and have someone give them a salary. Also, there is a reason why people do not make it in sales, they have the false sense of comfort that because they can talk that they can sell when in fact its the opposite... a good salesman does much more listening than talking.
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#38 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: is degree worth to get it?

Posted 25 May 2016 - 06:43 AM

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Y'all are really berating my hiring style, to be honest I don't give a shit because like I said... I know it works for my office, but y'all are missing my point.

What I was trying to tell the OP that if an interviewer tells him no, that it doesn't always mean no. He needs to fight back, reiterate to the interviewer why you are the person for the job. "I wanted to remind you that I was the guy who setup ... which makes me uniquely qualified for this position" or "I have done ... in the past and I think that my prior experience would propel me into ... here."


So you sort of get our point, but don't at the same time.

When we are assaulted with your style of aggressive interviewing practices, we don't give a shit! We will move on to a different work place that is less aggressive.

Why fight back?

Being a software developer needs not aggression and fighting with people. We as programmers enjoy fighting with technology and computers, a place of logic, not emotion. It's hard work, and an aggressive work place is a place of stress. Stress that gets in our way from our ability to do our job effectively.

So... WE DON'T GIVE A SHIT what you have to say about your office politics that is completely fueled by aggressive behaviour. You're in sales, you're meant to be aggressive. You need to be a shark that hunts down the client and gets them to sign on the biggest fattest check possible.

I am of the opinion that if my boss comes screaming and hollering at me... I will walk out of the room. I'm not paid to be yelled at. As I tell all my bosses when they get aggressive with me:

"There's only one person in this world allowed to yell at me, and he's dead. So unless you've exhumed my father's grave, get the fuck out of my face with that shit."
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#39 Nitewalkr  Icon User is offline

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Re: is degree worth to get it?

Posted 25 May 2016 - 06:43 AM

View Postlordofduct, on 25 May 2016 - 06:22 AM, said:

As for OP's question...

Why such a lack of effor?
Why is this question always so simplistic, with little effort added, and more annoyingly the OP always disappears once it is posed?

And also... what do you think the necessity is? I mean srsly, you're talking about a job that requires a high level of skill and/or training... what do you think the answer is!?



note - I do not have a degree
And it was hard as balls to fight my way up the job ladder


I guy who also have done Degree sits beside me, failed at running his own business twice, is a senior fullstack developer, and is getting offers like 100k-120k. But even he tells me that it wasnt worth it.

So the answer is vaguely explained or discussed every time one asks this question.

Do you need a degree? Probably not, but there are few clients in the job market that may require you to have one plus a solid 3 years worth of experience...even for the things that are not even in the market.

I have a diploma and a certificate claiming that I am Microsoft Certified Professional. I dont have a job either, perhaps because the recruiter / interviewer didnt ask me what have I done and what do I know, but if I have a degree and a three year experience. (I am talking about 10 years ago.)
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#40 modi123_1  Icon User is online

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Re: is degree worth to get it?

Posted 25 May 2016 - 06:47 AM

To quote the movie 'The Recruit' - "Everything is a test!".
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#41 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: is degree worth to get it?

Posted 25 May 2016 - 06:54 AM

Don't get me wrong though... I've met devs who do love an aggressive workplace.

I just meet a lot more devs who aren't.

And interviews are intimidating places.

The way I go through an interview has always been by building up my confidence. And how I do that is I view it that this is not just an interview of me, but an interview of my prospective job. So I look for behaviours in my potential employer that I think are a signs of a workplace I won't find comfortable.

Hell, if OP is into that sort of thing... they might just heed your advice. Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean you went unheard. Quite the contrary, you were quite obviously heard... you got a response from all of us.
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#42 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is online

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Re: is degree worth to get it?

Posted 25 May 2016 - 07:15 AM

View Postdday9, on 25 May 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

What I was trying to tell the OP that if an interviewer tells him no, that it doesn't always mean no.


What you don't understand is that in the tech world, it actually does mean no. And usually, if you ask politely, the person doing the hiring will tell you exactly why it means no and what you'd have to change in order to be the right candidate. Because in the tech world there are actually reasons why someone is not a good fit for the job, and why someone else is a better fit.

I like this way of doing things, personally - hiring the person most willing to beg and grovel and debase themselves might work for you, but I actually don't want that person in my organization at all, in any capacity.

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Is that why salesmen are the richest people in the world?


Dammit, now you made me spit coffee all over my keyboard.
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#43 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: is degree worth to get it?

Posted 25 May 2016 - 07:27 AM

Oh, shit, I didn't catch that. I sort of just tl;dr'd that post of his...

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Is that why salesmen are the richest people in the world? They the ones willing to take risks and put their livelihoods at stake in order to make better money then those who decided to take the easy way out and have someone give them a salary. Also, there is a reason why people do not make it in sales, they have the false sense of comfort that because they can talk that they can sell when in fact its the opposite... a good salesman does much more listening than talking.


I want you to do me something...

Go watch the movie "Interstate 60", it's by Bob Gale (the guy who did Back To The Future), it's a hilarious, cheesy and fun movie. Watch if only for the 'pink ranger' scene.

Anyways, the premise of the movie is this guy is delivering a package by route of Interstate 60, a highway that doesn't exist. And he travels through towns that don't exist. And one of them is 'lawson' (if I remember correctly), a town populated by lawyers.

You... you remind me of that town.

You know not what risk is. You wouldn't know real risk if it came up and bit you in the ass.

I've done sales... sales with risk harder than you could ever imagine. I still have to go to funerals on the regular for those sorts of risk. So don't give me your shit about wealth and risk. I took all the risks I needed in my life, and I'm where I need to be as a result. I don't need more... if you risk too much, you fall.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 25 May 2016 - 07:29 AM

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#44 dday9  Icon User is offline

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Re: is degree worth to get it?

Posted 25 May 2016 - 07:50 AM

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I've done sales... sales with risk harder than you could ever imagine. I still have to go to funerals on the regular for those sorts of risk. So don't give me your shit about wealth and risk. I took all the risks I needed in my life, and I'm where I need to be as a result. I don't need more... if you risk too much, you fall.

Risk in the sense of financial risk... I swear its like trying to argue with a leftist. I say one thing, then you project a complete different version of what I was talking about.

I wasn't talking about risk in the sense my brother is risking his life overseas protecting this country, nor was I talking about risk in the sense some of my high school friends going out selling molly. I am talking about the type of risk of putting everything that you have in opening up a business. The type of risk that if you don't sell whatever good/service it is that you sell for that day, you don't get paid. The type of risk that 9-5er's cannot empathize with but at the same time are too afraid to take the lunge because of failure.

Edit - Good for you that you have a past, we all do. But everything you've told me suggests that you are either too scared to go into sales or you don't know enough to be successful. That's why you've made comments like:

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think that the way they run their ego-maniacal sales job is the same way the rest of us should do it.

and

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those with no skill set whatsoever aside from a fat mouth, sell.

This post has been edited by dday9: 25 May 2016 - 07:57 AM

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#45 lordofduct  Icon User is offline

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Re: is degree worth to get it?

Posted 25 May 2016 - 07:52 AM

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I swear its like trying to argue with a leftist.


LOL, and I feel like I'm arguing with a salesperson.

Oh wait, I am.

Yeah, you weren't talking about other kinds of risk... you only talked about financial risk. Because that's the only thing that matters to you. You think that's the only thing that's important, and that you're not getting anywhere if you don't do that sort of risk.

You're belittling the risks other people take.

That was my point.

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They the ones willing to take risks and put their livelihoods at stake in order to make better money then those who decided to take the easy way out and have someone give them a salary.


Yeah, being a soldier is the "easy way out"...

I call it the "someone has to take out the garbage theory". SOMEONE has to do all this other work. Everyone can't be a salesperson, yet you can't see why the fuck anyone wouldn't want to approach life's problems in the aggressive salesman way you do. I don't care what it takes to be a salesperson, we're NOT sales people... WE'RE SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS/ENGINEERS.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 25 May 2016 - 07:57 AM

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