WinForms vs. WPF (again)

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#1 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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WinForms vs. WPF (again)

Posted 20 February 2017 - 03:57 PM

mod edit: split from this topic

WinForms is long dead. I would urge you to move forward 2 decades to WPF or Xamarin.
The techniques you're using, even the collection types you're using just aren't in play in modern software. There are plenty of 50 year olds with experience in these legacy techniques, to maintain legacy software. But there is no reason to make new stuff like it is 1998.

If you want to take a look at my https://www.RedPillXamarin.com tutorial site you can follow along the sample app being created that uses modern techniques to create a list of Pet's and their properties. Pretty much the same only different of your desire to have a list of people and their movie likes. Collections are collections, be it people or pets... Properties are properties be it fur color or movies.

This post has been edited by Curtis Rutland: 21 February 2017 - 09:17 AM


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#2 Morry2016  Icon User is offline

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Re: WinForms vs. WPF (again)

Posted 21 February 2017 - 12:44 AM

But why do you have C# programming help sectionin the forum then :)/>

This post has been edited by andrewsw: 21 February 2017 - 01:35 AM
Reason for edit:: Removed previous quote, just press REPLY

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#3 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: WinForms vs. WPF (again)

Posted 21 February 2017 - 04:15 AM

Nobody said C# was dead. C# is alive, strong and will be C# version 7 very soon.

WinForms is very much dead and relegated to supporting old legacy apps that were created in WinForms the decades previously. Many WinForms apps are still functional from when they were created in the late 90's and early 00's. Companies are still earning money from them and their creators are still around to support them.

But you wouldn't make new software in WinForms these days. That would be like making a new TV in 2017 using an old round black and white CRT from 1950.

Posted Image

This post has been edited by tlhIn`toq: 21 February 2017 - 04:16 AM

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#4 Thomas1965  Icon User is offline

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Re: WinForms vs. WPF (again)

Posted 21 February 2017 - 06:15 AM

View PosttlhIn`toq, on 20 February 2017 - 03:57 PM, said:

WinForms is long dead. I would urge you to move forward 2 decades to WPF or Xamarin.
The techniques you're using, even the collection types you're using just aren't in play in modern software. There are plenty of 50 year olds with experience in these legacy techniques, to maintain legacy software. But there is no reason to make new stuff like it is 1998.

If you want to take a look at my https://www.RedPillXamarin.com tutorial site you can follow along the sample app being created that uses modern techniques to create a list of Pet's and their properties. Pretty much the same only different of your desire to have a list of people and their movie likes. Collections are collections, be it people or pets... Properties are properties be it fur color or movies.


That WinForms is dead is just your personal opinion, please don't try to sell it as an absolute truth or religious dogma.
WinForms are the easiest and fastest to learn for hobby programmers.
Anyway his problem has nothing to do with WinForms or WPF. It's rather about classes and properties.
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#5 Curtis Rutland  Icon User is offline

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Re: WinForms vs. WPF (again)

Posted 21 February 2017 - 07:49 AM

Quote

WinForms are the easiest and fastest to learn for hobby programmers.


That WinForms are the easiest and fastest for hobbyists is just your personal opinion, please don't try to.....you get my point. I mean, you could say the same about VB6 (and some people will say that), but that doesn't mean I'm not going to tell people to learn something that is both modern and useful.

WinForms is dead in the sense that MS will never update it again, never add anything to it, never move it forward again in any meaningful way. It may not be dead in the sense that you can't use it, but it's dead in the sense that it's a waste of time to learn it when you could learn something that actually has a future.

This post has been edited by Curtis Rutland: 21 February 2017 - 07:49 AM

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#6 DarenR  Icon User is offline

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Re: WinForms vs. WPF (again)

Posted 21 February 2017 - 08:17 AM

we use winforms at my large company all the time to create quick one off programs for simplicity sake. no need to go into wpf if it is just a simple click here type of program or execute program that takes little to no user input.
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#7 Curtis Rutland  Icon User is offline

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Re: WinForms vs. WPF (again)

Posted 21 February 2017 - 09:15 AM

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no need to go into wpf


What do you gain by avoiding it? It's not like there's extra overhead involved in WPF. What makes WPF so much harder to do something simple in? You can write a WPF app practically the same way as you would a winforms app; you can ignore all the MVVM and binding stuff if you want to do quick and dirty. If there's no user input or simple input you might as well have made a console application.

Basically, I don't understand why choosing WinForms makes things simpler, since you can do all the simple stuff in WPF the same way you'd do it in WinForms.
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#8 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: WinForms vs. WPF (again)

Posted 21 February 2017 - 09:19 AM

WPF is every bit as fast to create fast one-off's, proof of concepts etc. For those that get equally experienced.

That's the point Curtis, myself and others have tried to make here. If its slower for someone its because they aren't bothering to get their skillset up to date. Every chance to use is is passed up "because I can do it faster in WinForms". Well, if one never makes a point then of course they will be slower at it. Then suddenly you find yourself still only well versed in 2011 skills in a 2018 world.

> Mainstream support ended 4/12/2011. Extended support ended 4/12/2016

For the rookie entering development WinForms is dead from a practical point. Why spend 5,000 hours learning a technology that is end-of-life without a driving reason such as employer insistence? The same 5,000 hour learning curve could be spent learning a technology that is NOT dead, NOT slower, more versatile, and in fact makes for cleaner code and better separation of concerns.

For the experienced developer: What does it hurt to use undead technology and remain marketable? It costs nothing but time. Why would someone deliberately not move their skillset forward unless they are simply content to rest on their lorals. I guess that's fine if one is happy doing legacy support when approaching retirement. Its just not my personal style.

I find maintaining my skillset much like maintaining code or cleaning house. If you keep up to date... do a little every day... its no big deal. If you wait until you're fired and looking for work... or wait until the weekend to clean house... Its a big chore that consumes all your time.

But hey - I didn't want to start a philosophical war over it. For those happy with WinForms go for it. Just accept that part of choosing to remain in the past is that fewer and fewer people will spend the time there with you. As an example: I don't even bother with most WinForms specific questions any more because its a waste of my limited time. I can help more people with current needs by writing tutorials for current technology like Xamarin. I'm happy to point out its 10 years out of date and help people move forward. I'm happy to help out with a C#-specific concept even if it is a WinForms question because C# is still relevant in modern system like WPF and Xamarin.

You should also consider browser the job postings. Let that be your guide. Don't listen to me. Tally up how many postings out of 100 require WPF/XAML/MVVM and how many require WinForms. That is usually a pretty good indicator. For that matter look at the demand and pay for Xamarin cross-platform developers. Simple law of supply and demand. Companies want cross-platform and there aren't enough people proficient at it to do a good job. The offers I turn down weekly are at a level I would have jumped at 5-ish years ago. Staying ahead of the employment-requirement curve is profitable.
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#9 hexagod  Icon User is offline

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Re: WinForms vs. WPF (again)

Posted 21 February 2017 - 10:48 AM

Is it possible to use WPF without XML? The XML part is what turned me off about it. And the layout designer in VS is really buggy compared to winforms. Also, winforms is SUPER simple to integrate your code with the GUI.. when I tried WPF I was very confused and it also didn't seem as smooth as winform.

But :withstupid: so............
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#10 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: WinForms vs. WPF (again)

Posted 21 February 2017 - 11:10 AM

> Is it possible to use WPF without XAML?
Not if you want a job. Can it be done? Yes. Should you do it? No.

> And the layout designer in VS is really buggy
Nobody I know in the real world uses a designer for XAML. Just the markup page.

> Also, winforms is SUPER simple to integrate your code with the GUI.
Simple... but not right. Its easy to do things wrong from the perspective of separation of concerns. WinForms inherently causes the logic to be entangled with the UI and that's just plain wrong.

> winforms is SUPER simple to integrate your code with the GUI.
That's the actual PROBLEM. Your logic isn't supposed to be integrated with the GUI.

This post has been edited by tlhIn`toq: 21 February 2017 - 11:15 AM

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#11 hexagod  Icon User is offline

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Re: WinForms vs. WPF (again)

Posted 21 February 2017 - 11:39 AM

interesting. OK OK
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#12 Ratatoskr  Icon User is offline

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Re: WinForms vs. WPF (again)

Posted 21 February 2017 - 05:04 PM

Had a nice chuckle with the clever domain name ^^
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#13 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: WinForms vs. WPF (again)

Posted 22 February 2017 - 01:35 AM

View PosttlhIn`toq, on 20 February 2017 - 04:57 PM, said:

If you want to take a look at my https://www.RedPillXamarin.com tutorial site {...}


View PostRatatoskr, on 21 February 2017 - 06:04 PM, said:

Had a nice chuckle with the clever domain name ^^/>


Thanks. I didn't want to do the "Real World blahblah" that every man and his dog uses for everything. But I wanted to hint towards it with a cyber feel. Then it hit me that the 'Red Pill' took you to the real world.

Please feel free (encouraged even) to leave feedback on the site. That is what will steer the direction of future articles.
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#14 hexagod  Icon User is offline

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Re: WinForms vs. WPF (again)

Posted 24 February 2017 - 03:30 PM

I guess one of the reasons I'm avoiding Xamarin if I don't have to use it is the myriad of compiler, configuration and layout issues that I had during my stint in mobile development. I love Xamarin... but it's got way more tiny issues that C++/C#/Winforms never put me through... all types of little things here and there that bugged me. However, it did the trick and it's a great IDE.

But I digress, that was Xamarin for Android; yet, I'm still worried that I'll run into all those types of little annoyances with WPF/Xamarin// which is why I'm avoiding it.
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#15 tlhIn`toq  Icon User is offline

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Re: WinForms vs. WPF (again)

Posted 24 February 2017 - 04:44 PM

Well... That's your choice.

But honestly it sounds like someone that had one car accident so will never drive again - just in case. Or because they got sick once in a Denny's in Oregon they won't every eat at one again.

And let's be honest - those other technologies have their issues too - you just know them well enough from experience to instinctively avoid them.

But hey - avoid Xamarin all you want. Just helps me by reducing the number of people capable of working it. I don't want to be "the legacy guy". If you're happy with that role and it makes you happy then we both win. If you're happy then I'm happy for ya.
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