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#1 Dexter101  Icon User is offline

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Which of Ruby and Javascript are more in demand at the moment?

Posted 03 March 2017 - 06:49 PM

Hi,

I've recently decided to take up coding and try and get a job in software development, I'm either going to be doing an apprenticeship or doing a coding camp kind of thing. I've completed the Java course on code academy and I really enjoyed it and liked using logic to solve problems so I think this is something I could definitely have a future in.

But for someone without a degree, economically speaking would it be more viable for me to go down the front end javascript/html/css/ruby route or the backend java route. Considering that for a lot of employers a 2.1 degree is necessity and that even though (after a couple of years) I might end up being technically better than someone, how will I fare against them if they have a 2.1 computer science degree from imperial for example.

What I'm essentially asking is for myself, without a degree, to get the high salary paying jobs in however many years time, permanent or contract, which language would you recommend me choosing, and front end or backend?

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Replies To: Which of Ruby and Javascript are more in demand at the moment?

#2 Atli  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which of Ruby and Javascript are more in demand at the moment?

Posted 04 March 2017 - 02:23 AM

Degrees don't matter very much in this industry, really. It may help you land an interview, but beyond that it's not horribly important. - People without any skill at programming can (and often do) get degrees, so those hiring need to look beyond that and try to evaluate their skill regardless. Just hiring based on education is a very bad idea. That sort of levels the playing field.

As for which route is more economical. It highly depends on where you are, and what is in more demand in your area. Web developers don't really get away with knowing only the front or back-end, we are expected to be at least proficient with both. I suggest you pick a back-end language you like, and then work to get experience with the entire process, including the front-end.
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#3 ge∅  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which of Ruby and Javascript are more in demand at the moment?

Posted 04 March 2017 - 04:24 AM

I know by experience that when you teach yourself and have no experience of the industry, you have no need to write scope statements, decompose the work for a team, think about scalability, design patterns, frameworks, etc. You have no methodology to manage a project, or your work, efficiently, and even though there are books about everything, it takes a lot of discipline to learn these "side things" you don't actually need to play with your text editor and make funny apps. Moreover, when you are ignorant, you are ignorant of your ignorance, so you don't know what to read and what to learn.

Of course, if you are serious with programming and want to make it your job you will do your best, but if you have shortcomings you may not know about them and it may not stand out during your interview.

Because of that, I know I would be more comfortable hiring someone who has a degree, or has spent some time in a specialised school. I may be biased, but I am certainly not the only one.
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#4 Dexter101  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which of Ruby and Javascript are more in demand at the moment?

Posted 04 March 2017 - 04:26 AM

View PostAtli, on 04 March 2017 - 02:23 AM, said:

Degrees don't matter very much in this industry, really. It may help you land an interview, but beyond that it's not horribly important. - People without any skill at programming can (and often do) get degrees, so those hiring need to look beyond that and try to evaluate their skill regardless. Just hiring based on education is a very bad idea. That sort of levels the playing field.

As for which route is more economical. It highly depends on where you are, and what is in more demand in your area. Web developers don't really get away with knowing only the front or back-end, we are expected to be at least proficient with both. I suggest you pick a back-end language you like, and then work to get experience with the entire process, including the front-end.


Ok thanks, but as I used to work in the finance and tech recruitment industry I know from experience that degrees matter a lot, to get an interview anyway, after that I know it's about technical skills. Also let me rephrase my earlier question, would you recommend going into software development or web development, for a higher paying salary over the course of my career as someone without a degree?
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#5 Dexter101  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which of Ruby and Javascript are more in demand at the moment?

Posted 04 March 2017 - 04:31 AM

Hi,

I'm looking to become a developer, I have no commercial experience in coding. I did a bit of pascal at school a couple of years ago, and I've recently completed the code academy java course, and I think I could have a career in development if I put the work in.

I'm looking to do a coding camp soon; considering the current market in London, and the fact that I don't have a degree, would you recommend I look to go down the Ruby/rails route or Javascript/html/css route? Which would get me a higher paying salary, starting as well as over the course of my career?

Thanks
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#6 Dexter101  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which of Ruby and Javascript are more in demand at the moment?

Posted 04 March 2017 - 04:37 AM

View Postge∅, on 04 March 2017 - 04:24 AM, said:

I know by experience that when you teach yourself and have no experience of the industry, you have no need to write scope statements, decompose the work for a team, think about scalability, design patterns, frameworks, etc. You have no methodology to manage a project, or your work, efficiently, and even though there are books about everything, it takes a lot of discipline to learn these "side things" you don't actually need to play with your text editor and make funny apps. Moreover, when you are ignorant, you are ignorant of your ignorance, so you don't know what to read and what to learn.

Of course, if you are serious with programming and want to make it your job you will do your best, but if you have shortcomings you may not know about them and it may not stand out during your interview.

Because of that, I know I would be more comfortable hiring someone who has a degree, or has spent some time in a specialised school. I may be biased, but I am certainly not the only one.


Ok thanks, so when you say "specialised school", would you count an intensive coding camp as this? Also, so if you say you wouldn't have confidence in someone without a degree would you recommend going into software development or web development, also front end or back end, for a higher paying salary at entry level as well as over the course of my career as someone without a degree?
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#7 xclite  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which of Ruby and Javascript are more in demand at the moment?

Posted 04 March 2017 - 04:55 AM

They solve different problems. Most people who use Ruby on Rails professionally also use Javascript/HTML/CSS professionally. There are fewer roles that are solely Javascript/HTML/CSS. Javascript is making inroads on the serverside (against the rest of the industry's better judgement) but it's not likely that you'd be learning Node.js in a front-end course.
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#8 Dexter101  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which of Ruby and Javascript are more in demand at the moment?

Posted 04 March 2017 - 04:59 AM

View Postxclite, on 04 March 2017 - 04:55 AM, said:

They solve different problems. Most people who use Ruby on Rails professionally also use Javascript/HTML/CSS professionally. There are fewer roles that are solely Javascript/HTML/CSS. Javascript is making inroads on the serverside (against the rest of the industry's better judgement) but it's not likely that you'd be learning Node.js in a front-end course.


Ok thanks, for me to get a job in London and to earn a high as possible salary as I get deeper into my career, which language/s would you recommend focusing on(bearing in mind the current market)?
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#9 ge∅  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which of Ruby and Javascript are more in demand at the moment?

Posted 04 March 2017 - 05:21 AM

This is merely an opinion but I think that if you are no very enthusiast about web design you should not work in this field.

Concerning the pay raise, to be honest I don't give a dam but I know people from both fields who have a very low or very high salary. It depends more on the structure and the responsibility they have. If you are in a big company and have little experience and no degree it is possible that you start very low on the ladder and don't get a chance to climb up, but if it is the case you will sense it soon enough to run away and find a better environment where you will be able to develop yourself and help your company grow. I personally prefer smaller, more human scaled, companies for that matter.

I should warn you that web development is becoming a bit like photography : now that anyone can take pictures of their feet with their mobile phone and post them on Instagram, or buy an cheap 85X zoom for their cheap camera and take shots of poor people in developing countries, this job is a lot less respected than before. Similarly, now that people can download templates and plug-ins for their WordPress or PrestaShop, web development is not as respected as before (although you could argue that because of web apps, desktop apps have lost a bit of their mystery as well). This is transforming the field. You are not assured to do a lot of problem solving if your job consists of stitching up ready-made modules in order to sell "packages" for cheap.

As for coding camps, I would certainly not consider them as schools. The compressed time scale has drawbacks too, but it doesn't mean it can't teach you anything.
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#10 xclite  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which of Ruby and Javascript are more in demand at the moment?

Posted 04 March 2017 - 05:21 AM

I don't live and work in London, so I've no idea. I'd say you need a server-side language, and Rails is a decent return on investment. In reality, being an "X" developer isn't really the best way to increase salary across a career. In most cases you'll need to be able to use several tools. I myself have tried to focus on Java and Javascript (ug, where needed) at my day job, but also have used Ruby, C#, Python, Lisp, proprietary languages...
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#11 astonecipher  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which of Ruby and Javascript are more in demand at the moment?

Posted 04 March 2017 - 08:57 AM

CompSci degree's don't matter as much as you think, I may even know more without that with them. I think that you putting more faith in having a degree then go on to talk about a code camp says a lot about you un-assuredness of this industry as a whole. What the hell is a 2.1 degree anyway?

Yes, it is very possible to get a high paying position without a degree. No, it isn't easy and it tends not to be fast. Some employers will start you at a lower level and have you put in your dues before the salary is really worthwhile, but the opportunity is still there.

You are looking at a minimum of a year before you know enough about a single language to really use it. As to what you should study, there is quite a bit involved. A professional deals with more than just the language, it is a good place to start, but once you start there it opens you up to other areas that are needed as well. Look what is in high demand, and low demand and make a choice.

Being that you are just asking the same question across many topics, I am just going to merge them.
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#12 jon.kiparsky  Icon User is offline

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Re: Which of Ruby and Javascript are more in demand at the moment?

Posted 04 March 2017 - 11:34 AM

View PostDexter101, on 04 March 2017 - 06:59 AM, said:

Ok thanks, for me to get a job in London and to earn a high as possible salary as I get deeper into my career, which language/s would you recommend focusing on(bearing in mind the current market)?


This will sound counterintuitive, but the focus on maximizing salary is probably going to hold you back. Why is this? Because you're not going to get paid based on the languages you use, you're going to get paid based on your skills and the positions you rise to in the places where you work, and you're going to do this primarily based on what you're very good at. Now, what you're most likely to get very good at is the stuff you most like to work on and the stuff that brings you the most satisfaction. It's very unlikely that you're going to naturally gravitate to precisely the things that get the best average salaries, but that's never going to matter. What matters is that you find something that you really like to work on which is also something that employers need - this is the sweet spot. If you do this, I guarantee you will never have trouble finding work, and you will be paid well and enjoy the work that you do.

Also, just to nitpick your question, you're asking us to tell you about maximizing salary across your career, "bearing in mind the current market". But there is no reason to suppose that the current market conditions will hold past the present moment, and the likelihood decreases as we get further into your career (and your salary, hopefully gets larger). So the short answer is, nobody can usefully predict a single language to work on to maximize salary across your career. Rather than thinking about language, think about becoming the person that people want to hire to do the sorts of things you want to do.
This would include being good at some language, sure, but more important would be being good at learning how to solve new problems quickly, recognizing old problems in new disguises to avoid wheel reinvention, communicating with other developers, communicating with stakeholders, setting the right priorities at any given nexus, respecting other people's priorities and coming to productive consensus in a way that leaves all parties feeling like their concerns are heard and respected and the right decisions were made, that sort of thing.
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