Just some Off-Topic Thoughts - I'm tired of arguing with people

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#1 general656  Icon User is offline

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Just some Off-Topic Thoughts - I'm tired of arguing with people

Posted 09 August 2017 - 02:05 PM

I'm really tired of explaining people things. Of Arguing with people over philosophical facts. Or about anything.

People tend to be sometimes so stupid just because they want to prove that they're right. Usually, the phrase "I'm wrong, you're right" is so hard or Impossible for them to say.

Not a long ago, in my teen age, I was like that too. I had so much hot blood in my veins. I wanted to argue about anything. I mean, I was on the internet so much time that I was researching about so many useless and useful facts, that I had an opinion about many things.
I argued in a pretty bad and absolute way. Meaning that I had was showing people that I was absolute about the things I was talking about and that I couldn't accept anything else than what I was saying, that people wanted themselves to be right even more.

Topics about Beliefs and Religion, Simple Science facts like "Our sun is a star", Philosophical stuff like "What we do, is all for ourselves and that we don't really care about anyone" since it's all in our mind and in our human/animal instincts of survival.

Well, I didn't really discuss about anything related to hard thinking for a long time. I got bored of that. I had to learn first how to talk to people in a more well-behaved way

Until yesterday. Oh yesterday.
I was starting discussing with a childhood friend of mine. The topic "You have to prove everything if you want to state them as Facts".
I didn't really convince him in the end. That was fu***king disappointing.

All started when he told me about the Experiment of Philadelphia. He said that he believes that this thing existed. And I stated that it doesn't matter what you believe, since we don't really know if it was a fact. If you want it to be a fact, you have to prove it.

And he was so triggered from that statement that I knew, that in the end, no matter what I would say, he would still believe the opposite.

We people, are really illogical, stupid and emotional animals.

I stopped wanting to be right after I reached the end of my teen age. I'm saying "I'm sorry yeah you're right" almost everyday. Now, it doesn't matter to me if I'm wrong or right. I stopped being so asshole about it just to not dissapoint my Ego. All I want, is to discuss in piece, not Argue about things. I want to find solutions, not dead ends.

PS: It really scares me
If my childhood friend really had the urge to believe that we don't really have to prove everything to really prove that something exists, then how many people out there have the same beliefs. How many people out there -to state it purely- ... are really that stupid? Some of them are even at Big chairs governing other millions of people.

Why would I even want to discuss something if I know that the quality of the discussion is gonna be so low? I'm tired of this.

This post has been edited by general656: 09 August 2017 - 02:10 PM


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#2 modi123_1  Icon User is offline

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Re: Just some Off-Topic Thoughts - I'm tired of arguing with people

Posted 09 August 2017 - 02:13 PM

Pump the brakes - important question to clarify. Are you talking about the Philadelphia Experiment where they phase shifted a large boat invisible or the one where they, for a lack of sophisticated wording, teleported it?


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#3 general656  Icon User is offline

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Re: Just some Off-Topic Thoughts - I'm tired of arguing with people

Posted 09 August 2017 - 02:30 PM

View Postmodi123_1, on 09 August 2017 - 02:13 PM, said:

Pump the brakes - important question to clarify. Are you talking about the Philadelphia Experiment where they phase shifted a large boat invisible or the one where they, for a lack of sophisticated wording, teleported it?

I don't really care. That was not my point.

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And I stated that it doesn't matter what you believe since we don't really know if it was a fact. If you want it to be a fact, you have to prove it.


When I stated this, I knew that he didn't really know anything exciting about that experiment. When I asked him for a proof of that experiment you know what he did?
He went on his Computer, searched on Google "Philadelphia Experiment", went on Wikipedia, saw the name "Einstein" and "Relativety and Teleportation Theory" and automatically it was a proof for him. He really thought and stated this as a proof.

I mean, if for you, the reference to some important Theories or Names automatically proves something ... well ... this is no place for me.

I talked more deeply to him about it. I showed to him, my Speakers. And I said to him "Can you really prove to me that these speakers have something inside them?".
His response "I'm not stupid, I just put a Youtube video, so the speakers play and that means that they have something inside them".
- How is this a proof?
I said.
- Well, if they play, they necessarily have to have something inside them.

What if it's magic? If past physics would see today's Quantum Theory they would think that is Magic. So how do you really believe that there is not any other kind of technology behind this?

- That's stupid and you're wrong.
He said.

The thing is that people are so close minded that "Questioning Everything" is something stupid for everyday people. And that is purely disappointing.

I mean, it's not like I will try to re-proof every Physics theory in the Physics book just to prove to myself that they are true, but that's because:
a ) It's not my job
b ) Since they work on an Everyday and General with a hypothetical nano-error, it doesn't really matter to me. This itself is a proof that they work in General. May not work in very nano Physics Jobs. But on everyday basis, it works and that itself is a proof.
c ) I don't really have time for that. And it's not my job

This post has been edited by general656: 09 August 2017 - 02:36 PM

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#4 NeoTifa  Icon User is offline

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Re: Just some Off-Topic Thoughts - I'm tired of arguing with people

Posted 09 August 2017 - 02:36 PM

I have a feeling this is really about religion, or something that should be on /r/iamverysmart.
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#5 general656  Icon User is offline

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Re: Just some Off-Topic Thoughts - I'm tired of arguing with people

Posted 09 August 2017 - 02:39 PM

View PostNeoTifa, on 09 August 2017 - 02:36 PM, said:

I have a feeling this is really about religion, or something that should be on /r/iamverysmart.

I have a feeling you are so arrogant and disrespectful that you didn't even read what I was saying.

See? That was what I'm talking about. You people want so much to prove yourselves that you're so smart and knowledgable. Stop being disrespectful, stop posting on discussion topics when you didn't even read the post.

If all you wanted when you entered here is to offend me, this is no place for people like you. Bye.

This post has been edited by general656: 09 August 2017 - 02:39 PM

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#6 modi123_1  Icon User is offline

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Re: Just some Off-Topic Thoughts - I'm tired of arguing with people

Posted 09 August 2017 - 02:40 PM

Oh, but it matters to me.

Some observers may say more so than a yarn regarding someone's radical nihilism that is conditional, or situational, based one person's whim. Other's may say an interesting discussion on space/time lensing was missed.

So not everyone is big about conditional 'question everything', or hell maybe that get their rocks off on it but just not right at that time. Not necessarily Big Whoop Magazine front cover, ya know? ;)

Is that the crux? (but only answer that AFTER sharing which experiment variation you were on the cusp of talking about).
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#7 NeoTifa  Icon User is offline

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Re: Just some Off-Topic Thoughts - I'm tired of arguing with people

Posted 09 August 2017 - 02:43 PM

I actually read every word of your posts.
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#8 ArtificialSoldier  Icon User is offline

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Re: Just some Off-Topic Thoughts - I'm tired of arguing with people

Posted 09 August 2017 - 02:51 PM

Quote

And he was so triggered from that statement that I knew, that in the end, no matter what I would say, he would still believe the opposite.

That sounds like the Dunning-Kruger effect, possibly complicated by studies which have shown that people who believe in something that is not true, when presented with evidence disproving their belief, tend to continue believing in it more strongly. That kind of thing shows up, for example, if someone believes that Obama was actually born in Kenya. When shown proof that he was born in Hawaii, sometimes they tend to believe that he was born in Kenya even more strongly than before.

Quote

I have a feeling you are so arrogant and disrespectful that you didn't even read what I was saying.

I have a feeling that your style of discussion isn't very conducive to rational discourse. Maybe you're part of the problem. Someone not reading or understanding everything you wrote isn't a sign of disrespect.
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#9 depricated  Icon User is online

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Re: Just some Off-Topic Thoughts - I'm tired of arguing with people

Posted 09 August 2017 - 03:08 PM

View Postgeneral656, on 09 August 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

I don't really care. That was not my point.

It's important to understand the premise. In dismissing the question, are you not doing the exact thing you're lamenting?

View Postgeneral656, on 09 August 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

And I stated that it doesn't matter what you believe since we don't really know if it was a fact. If you want it to be a fact, you have to prove it.
The fun thing about facts is that they are facts regardless of human perception. That means a proof is not necessary to make something a fact. Indeed, facts do not require proof, they are simply described by them.

View Postgeneral656, on 09 August 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

When I stated this, I knew that he didn't really know anything exciting about that experiment. When I asked him for a proof of that experiment you know what he did?
What kind of proof do you expect your friend to find, when it's widely considered to be a hoax to begin with?

The absence of evidence is evidence of absence, but the burden of proof is on the person making the claim that the event occurred.

View Postgeneral656, on 09 August 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

I talked more deeply to him about it. I showed to him, my Speakers. And I said to him "Can you really prove to me that these speakers have something inside them?".
His response "I'm not stupid, I just put a Youtube video, so the speakers play and that means that they have something inside them".
- How is this a proof?
I said.
- Well, if they play, they necessarily have to have something inside them.

This is what we call deductive reasoning. Troubleshooting 101 - before you go breaking the speakers open to verify that they contain electronics, try playing sound through them and see what happens. If they function, then they contain hardware that interfaces with the sound card.

View Postgeneral656, on 09 August 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

What if it's magic?

Oh bless your heart.

View Postgeneral656, on 09 August 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

If past physics would see today's Quantum Theory they would think that is Magic. So how do you really believe that there is not any other kind of technology behind this?
Clarke's Third Law, right?

I'm gonna go with the obvious answer here - again with deductive reasoning: if such technology exists, it's certainly not commercially available at an affordable enough rate that your Inland Computer Speakers would contain it.

View Postgeneral656, on 09 August 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

The thing is that people are so close minded that "Questioning Everything" is something stupid for everyday people. And that is purely disappointing.
It sounds like you could do with a good deal of practicing it. Question everything, including yourself. Question everything, and ask better questions. Question everything, but challenge what matters.

View Postgeneral656, on 09 August 2017 - 05:30 PM, said:

This itself is a proof that they work in General. May not work in very nano Physics Jobs. But on everyday basis, it works and that itself is a proof.
Phlogiston theory worked. Humors theory worked. Religious prohibition on pork worked. The Paleo Diet works.

But to say that any of them are scientifically accurate based on the success of methodologies that came from them is a bit silly, isn't it?


View PostNeoTifa, on 09 August 2017 - 05:36 PM, said:

I have a feeling this is really about religion, or something that should be on /r/iamverysmart.

Agreed

View Postgeneral656, on 09 August 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

I have a feeling you are so arrogant and disrespectful that you didn't even read what I was saying.
Neo, you arrogant disrespectful brat you! Jeez, get your life together, L2READ NOOB!

View Postgeneral656, on 09 August 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

See? That was what I'm talking about.
I fail to see the correlation.

View Postgeneral656, on 09 August 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

You people want so much to prove yourselves that you're so smart and knowledgable.
What do you mean YOU PEOPLE? And isn't that exactly what you're doing?

View Postgeneral656, on 09 August 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

You Stop being disrespectful, stop posting on discussion topics when you didn't even read the post.
Practice what you preach. Welcome to the lounge!

View Postgeneral656, on 09 August 2017 - 05:39 PM, said:

You
If all you wanted when you entered here is to offend me, this is no place for people like you. Bye.

Normal society won't accept Neo, this is the only place that does. But that's really neither here nor there, is it?

This post has been edited by depricated: 09 August 2017 - 03:09 PM

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#10 general656  Icon User is offline

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Re: Just some Off-Topic Thoughts - I'm tired of arguing with people

Posted 09 August 2017 - 03:30 PM

Modi, as much as I know there are many variances of the story "Philadelphia Experiment". Not one or two.
To answer your question, he didn't really tell me. So we'll suppose all he knew about it was that a giant ship suddenly disappeared and re-appeared on the same place in a matter of seconds let's say.
But I said "I don't really care" because it was not really a matter of what I was talking about. And that's because he didn't even get in details of explaining to me why he thinks this experiment really existed and was true. He just thought it was true because of some Famous names and theories that people claimed they were strictly and genuinely related with the experiment.

But, it would be interesting to have a discussion about it.
If you want me to change the topic, well this is what I know so far:

There didn't really exist an experiment of Philadelphia at all.
It all came from the head of one and only person.
His name was Carl Allen. He claimed that he was taught "Invisible Technology" from Albert Einstein himself. When he finished his notes, he sent them under his signature to the Philadelphia's naval.
The Officers, doing what the officers doing with all the Essays, Photoprinted it and sent it to the Naval's Research Office to evaluate the essay. Well, some of the prints of the specific essay were leaked and thus the Philadelphia Experiment was born.

The best "proof" of the research as much as I know is this picture, where most Conspiracy Theorists say "Look carefully at the coordinates!" :
Posted Image

Which coordinates lead to the Philadelphia's Ports? No. They lead somewhere around here:
Posted Image
At the south coast of the New York's Port.

Either way, at 22 August of 1986 the mystery was solved. Carl Allen, being very old and ready to die, admitted that Philadelphia's Experiment was just a fake story and that the only "Inspector" of this experiment was just him and his head.
But it was already late. Movies, Books and rumours were already spread and people started already believing that this was true. The Myth of the experiment of Philadelphia was in the Roots of Pop Culture that even after 2 decades, Veteran of the Naval started saying that they were in the Experiment, they travelled through the 4th dimension and such things.


But why that theory remains so mainstream?
Well, the first reason is Psychological. After you accept a Conspiracy Theory, every proof of non-existence of this theory is false for you. You immediately deny it, and instead it's a proof for you that it's a Propaganda or an attempt of the Government to make you silent and for them to deny everything. So a Conspiracy Theorist takes an Argument against the Theory and transforms it into an Argument for the Theory.
The second reason is Historic. At the WWII USA was fighting in the Axis with open fronts. All things were Black and White. We are the good. The Nazis are the bad.
Then the Cold War came. Now we don't make face to face battles, now we fight in Foxy ways, with Spying, Propaganda, Satellites, Lies, Murders and Sabotaz. Now USA goes to Vietnam and kills little children and women. Suddenly, USA becomes the bad guy who holds Secrets. The Government does experiments to their seamen, hides Aliens, spies on us by satellites, propagandizes us with Fake Moon Landings and sprays us with Aeroplanes to make us stupid. And whoever argues about it and asks for serious proof, is stupid, hypnotized by the Government's Propaganda, or even worse, he is part of the Conspiracy.

With other words, the Human Stupidity, is over the limits. And we're all part of it.

This post has been edited by general656: 09 August 2017 - 03:43 PM

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#11 general656  Icon User is offline

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Re: Just some Off-Topic Thoughts - I'm tired of arguing with people

Posted 09 August 2017 - 03:41 PM

@depricated
You so much want to offend me do you. You call me Neo and stuff. Nice.
The "What if it's magic" was a matter of speech as I explained later. But you used it instead to make me look ridiculous. Nice use of my words. That was smart.

When I said "It doesn't matter", it didn't really. I didn't really care if it was one or another. My friend couldn't prove either because he only knew ONE version. Do you understand? If you would read my text without having so much hate for myself, you would understand that.

The Absence of Evidence is not Evidence of Absence. Until 1971 we didn't have any evidence of Black Holes, until they were discovered.

Quote

I'm gonna go with the obvious answer here - again with deductive reasoning: if such technology exists, it's certainly not commercially available at an affordable enough rate that your Inland Computer Speakers would contain it.

Well, he couldn't even say this. My point was not to prove him that my speaker was magic. But to start crafting proofs. Which he couldn't. Until he finally said one
- Well, if I took some wood and build an empty speaker, it wouldn't function.
It was one kind of proof.
Before that, all he said was "That stupid". But why IS IT STUPID? Explain to me? It may be, it may be not!

I have a feeling this is really about religion, or something that should be on /r/iamverysmart.
Agreed


Where do I say something that is "Really Smart"? All I say is just some -as I thought- common skepticism. Maybe I was wrong. Maybe we should start believing on Magical Unicorns from now. I saw one yesterday. That's a proof enough.

And he was the rude one. I'm not the one rushing into People's topics trying to insult them just by reading a title. He didn't take a second to read what I'd written. He just supposed and just wanted to offend me to show how smart he is. So guess who belongs to /r/iamverysmart.

I appreciate that you make productive speech and that you like insulting me. It really makes my day. Have a nice rest of the day sir!

This post has been edited by general656: 09 August 2017 - 03:48 PM

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#12 modi123_1  Icon User is offline

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Re: Just some Off-Topic Thoughts - I'm tired of arguing with people

Posted 09 August 2017 - 04:21 PM

Goodness, gracious on that response. Hand waving those wiki entries away - you have no stance on if it was stealth or location shifting? Pity.

Also obligatory:



As it was, let me throw a few timbers onto the fire. Has it occurred to you that not everyone, all the time, cares to engage in some pedantic "can you prove it" argument? That radical questioning behavior isn't always the best drink to order right off the bat? I mean if some urchin with a cockney accent ambled up to me and pipped "oi, guvna! Prove to me that there speaker is not magical, what-waht!" I may bristle like a prickly pear as well. I can only imagine how many incidents it would have taken.

Maybe this fellow of yours is more a pragmatistc and not some nhilist... maybe he just didn't care to get into a magical speaker discussion.

Side question - where do you draw the line? You indicate you don't run the proofs on all physics formulas for X reasons, why not? There is a statistical percentage that they may be wrong or just printed inaccurately. Maybe your hand waving dismissal of that is the same as your buddy trying to hand wave off a "prove a speaker is a speaker and not magical unicorn farts" discussion. If this is to be an example of engagements perhaps try a different tack. You know, self reflect for corrections if you are getting this worked up over it.

Spoiler


Quote

And he was the rude one. I'm not the one rushing into People's topics trying to insult them just by reading a title. He didn't take a second to read what I'd written. He just supposed and just wanted to offend me to show how smart he is. So guess who belongs to /r/iamverysmart.

Yes.. he certainly has a way with that.

Spoiler


To wrap up - it's unfortunate those around you don't want to inconsistently engage in radical questioning. Now you know and you can make corrections to your internal response to that information. :^: At least you got that going for ya!
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#13 ArtificialSoldier  Icon User is offline

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Re: Just some Off-Topic Thoughts - I'm tired of arguing with people

Posted 09 August 2017 - 04:23 PM

Quote

You so much want to offend me do you. You call me Neo and stuff. Nice.

He was referring to NeoTifa, the other person who you accused of being disrespectful and trying to offend you. Are you sure you're not just trying to be offended? Do you think it's the responsibility of other people to avoid offending you? You're making a lot of assumptions about other people here - you're assuming people are disrespecting you, trying to offend you, that they have hate for you, they're trying to insult you, no one is reading what you write, people are trying to act smart, people are insulting you, etc. And all of this in a topic where you start by saying you're tired of arguing with people.
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#14 general656  Icon User is offline

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Re: Just some Off-Topic Thoughts - I'm tired of arguing with people

Posted 09 August 2017 - 04:36 PM

View Postmodi123_1, on 09 August 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

Goodness, gracious on that response. Hand waving those wiki entries away - you have no stance on if it was stealth or location shifting? Pity.

Well, since the owner of the story itself said it was fake nearly when he was nearly dead and he probably didn't care anymore or he was probably feeling guilty, it's probably fake for us.

But your arguments are good.

View Postmodi123_1, on 09 August 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

Also obligatory:

Loled :gunsmilie: B)


View Postmodi123_1, on 09 August 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

As it was, let me throw a few timbers onto the fire. Has it occurred to you that not everyone, all the time, cares to engage in some pedantic "can you prove it" argument? That radical questioning behavior isn't always the best drink to order right off the bat? I mean if some urchin with a cockney accent ambled up to me and pipped "oi, guvna! Prove to me that there speaker is not magical, what-waht!" I may bristle like a prickly pear as well. I can only imagine how many incidents it would have taken.

Let's go to the next argument to answer to you ...

View Postmodi123_1, on 09 August 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

Maybe this fellow of yours is more a pragmatistc and not some nhilist... maybe he just didn't care to get into a magical speaker discussion.

If he was Pragmatistic, then he wouldn't believe in Philadelphia Experiment without having a single evidence. That's my point. That's why I stated to him all these crap. I wanted him to make himself start questioning some things like these.

I mean, if all you have to believe that something was true, is the "Albert Einstein's" reference at someone's story and some hypothetical Theories of this famous scientist, then I can make you believe at anything.

View Postmodi123_1, on 09 August 2017 - 04:21 PM, said:

Side question - where do you draw the line? You indicate you don't run the proofs on all physics formulas for X reasons, why not? There is a statistical percentage that they may be wrong or just printed inaccurately. Maybe your hand waving dismissal of that is the same as your buddy trying to hand wave off a "prove a speaker is a speaker and not magical unicorn farts" discussion. If this is to be an example of engagements perhaps try a different tack. You know, self reflect for corrections if you are getting this worked up over it.

And yes, you're right. I agree with you that probably I should try a different tack. I admit that the "Speaker" example was probably a little bit "extreme" lets say. But it's not necessarily stupid. At least as much as I inspected over the example ... we have:
- A speaker -> Prove me that the speaker has something inside it -> Well it works, it has sound, so it necessarily has something inside it -> Yeah but that is by Practical Experience. What if you open it and find nothing? Because it works with other kind of technology? By direct radiowaves maybe. If you don't have the experience, the knowledge or the profession to prove me that it can't work with another way, how are you so sure that something necessarily exists in there?

What do you think of that? :unsure:

This post has been edited by general656: 09 August 2017 - 04:37 PM

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#15 modi123_1  Icon User is offline

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Re: Just some Off-Topic Thoughts - I'm tired of arguing with people

Posted 09 August 2017 - 04:43 PM

I gotcha bubba - I know I when I turn 18 I'll try and passive-aggressively pigeonhole folk in discussions too. One day. *insert disney song*

All I was trying to do is open up your eyes to a world of possibilities you are ignoring. Again if you are shooting to ramrod conversations into that speaker example when I would rather just have a conversation - yeah, I would get peeved. His reaction is not invalid because you don't like it.

Side note, I wager I could rustle up a few pragmatists that are down with that low level of a conspiracy theory. Heck there's probably a load of "-ists" and "-ismists" that could fill in that void. Ha!
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