[Reverand Dave]

Yesterday the company I work for announced a 15% global workforce reduction. 40% at the site where I work. I'm not too worried about my job. I basically do an engineers work for about 1/3 of the pay due to my lack of a degree. On top of that, software I have written I widely used for everyday operations. But still, I can't help but worry for my friends that work there. I know that there will be some serious fat trimmed, but in the process we always lose some good people.

At the same time, the executives have taken a 20% pay cut. Which at first sounds noble, but when you consider that the company has lost money globally for the last 4 years under the rule of these chumps and that only a year and a half ago after the last round of layoffs they gave themselves huge stock bonuses, it kind of takes the shine off of them. Coupled with that there are so many executives and VPs that you can't throw a rock without hitting one.

I know that this is a necesary move at this point, and am actually a bit surprized it has not happened sooner, but still, after seeing how bloated the management system is I can't help but feel a little chapped...

[KYA]

This tickles me a bit. You support a candidate that wants to have more governmental management of everyday affairs and yet here you are bitching about bloated management...

[modi123_1]

Isn't that *every* candidate? (well excluding the crazy Anarchy party)

[Nykc]

I am not here to pick a fight, but I have to agree with KYA. Your rants of hatred towards Bush and our Democratic Congress, combined with this post makes for irony.

[Reverand Dave]

KYA and Nykc, You two fellas need to pull your heads out and realize what id going on in the world around you. The government has grown by atleast 40% under this corrupt group of douchebags. Bush and his cronies are the same bloated corrupt management system that have caused our economy to crash in the same way that the inept executives at my company have drove it into the ground. I don't see any irony at all, but i see huge similarities. Too bad you guys can't and I hope you are not face with a situation like this any time soon.

[mocker]

I feel the pain, my companies doing basically the same thing, and a large part of it is the irresponsible business decisions by the top few guys. And now that they've come close to driving the company into the ground, their plan to save money is paycuts and getting rid of some of the people that can help develop better products to make them succeed.
My thinking though, is that, as a developer (or most professions), my skills are useful to many different companies. Unless I AM upper management and therefore affect policy, then being in a company that is being driven to the ground is only my problem as long as I want it to be. There is still a large demand for skilled developers and engineers. If the execs are trying to make you and others take the damages for their bad decisions.. screw them, leave and find a better company.


I didn't read your political posts, and honestly, I don't care what you posted in another thread, because this one has nothing to do with it. Good to see there are members eager to drag this thread into whatever political debate was going on before though.

[KYA]

Reverand Dave, on 10 Oct, 2008 - 04:21 PM, said:

KYA and Nykc, You two fellas need to pull your heads out and realize what id going on in the world around you. The government has grown by atleast 40% under this corrupt group of douchebags. Bush and his cronies are the same bloated corrupt management system that have caused our economy to crash in the same way that the inept executives at my company have drove it into the ground. I don't see any irony at all, but i see huge similarities. Too bad you guys can't and I hope you are not face with a situation like this any time soon.

Let me make it crystal for you since you can't seem to see it.

In this thread you say you think the management is bloated and there are way too many executives (and therefore oversights and people getting paid too much money). In other threads you have said that you support Obama and left wing tendencies. This includes more government involvement in day to day activities. It is essentially more executives and management. Since you have expressed both support and disdain for this concept, it is irony. The government itself may not have grown, but its power has. This will only increase under a democratic executive and thus why I brought it up. Jim Cramer mentioned in an interview recently that as much as you all would like to, you cannot pin the entire economic crisis on the Bush administration. Lending money to people who cannot pay it back is bad. Lending more money then you have is bad. The former was advocated by Democrats who wanted everyone and their mother to get a loan because it was the equality thing to do. I'm really tired of the left saying economic situations in America are not fair. Guess what? Life is not fair.

Anyone worth their salt (read: pay) will not have trouble finding work if the company goes under.

[Nykc]

FYI - Rev. I have been in that situation in April. I was a web developer for the 23rd largest bank in the nation. Does that make me want to go out and blame bush? No! Dammit KYA beat me to the punch with that one but yes Bloated Govt. == Left Wing Agenda.

In addition to KYA's post - you claim to want less management (work), more government (Obama). How does that make sense. Why do I need to wake up when Obama is for stricter gun laws and now my new place of employment is a Gun Dealership - actually one of the largest Winchester dealers in Ohio. I do not care what your stance is on the 2nd, I like what I do right now - and I am a supporter of the 2nd, NRA, NWTF and a few others to say the least.

Both Obama and McCain are for the RIAA - another thing which I am against but just on these two issues alone McCain leads 1-0. I do not like big government, I was a Marine during the Clinton administration and let me tell you he made some pretty dumbass decisions.

Your boy Clinton also initiated and is responsible for the DMCA. The whole left wing is attacking every interest I have in regards to technology and control.

Key word CONTROL - the Left wants control.

So what did Clinton do besides trade Nuclear secrets with N. Korea and let Obama slip through his fingers? Please elaborate, because last time the Democrats controlled the White House - he left a clusterfuck for our next president. You can bash Bush all you want, he is my President and I voted for him and I along with a whole lot of others will be voting for McCain.

Canada is looking for some new residents though

Go ahead and say your peace, but I decided not to argue about politics anymore, it is pointless, and I will not change my mindset. I was a liberal once too. I was 17, young and dumb and I regret a lot of things I did back then. Then I became educated.

edit - Last I checked the Congress had a lower approval rating than Bush. What does that say about the Democratic party?

This post has been edited by Nykc: 10 October 2008 - 06:47 PM

[Reverand Dave]

Nykc, on 10 Oct, 2008 - 06:44 PM, said:

FYI - Rev. I have been in that situation in April. I was a web developer for the 23rd largest bank in the nation. Does that make me want to go out and blame bush? No! Dammit KYA beat me to the punch with that one but yes Bloated Govt. == Left Wing Agenda.

I didn't start this as a political or flame thread. I just want to make this crystal clear. I don't know you guys, and I don't have anything against you personally as you seem to have against me. I respect you guys for your programming knowledge. Your posts are insightful and helpful in your fields of expertise.

That being said, allow me to retort.

I am very unlikely to lose my job as a result of this. I have built a very stong reputation in my dept as an expert in several fields due to my hard work and determination. So when this is all said and done, it is unlikely that I will have to post on here that "I was" anything. I never said I wanted less work. I started programming in my spare time at work to fill the void because I wanted more work, and if you equivocate management with work, then I'm sorry for you.

I didn't bring bush or politics into this.

I never said that I wanted more government. I would like more effective government, but we don't need any expansion for that. The fact that you guys believe that republican means less government is a bit sad. All politicians are in favor of government expansion no matter what party they belong to, some are just more honest about it than others.

Bush has expanded the government more than any other president in history. So apparently left = big government is a bit silly to say at this point in the game.

At the same time that my company has been claiming to be "streamlining" the management structure they have appointed more executives and VP's. At last count there are something like 30 VP's some of which report to other VP's. There have been a series of gimmies to any and all of the friends of the board. A few years back, Forbes reported that our CEO was one of the top ten worst CEOs in the nation. The local paper reported on it. As a result, the company store stopped carrying the local paper and the once available internet access to that site was blocked. The only member of the board to speak out against the CEO, Chairman, and President (all the same guy) was mysteriously voted off the board. I see very direct similarities between this and the bush administration.

Nykc, on 10 Oct, 2008 - 06:44 PM, said:

In addition to KYA's post - you claim to want less management (work), more government (Obama). How does that make sense. Why do I need to wake up when Obama is for stricter gun laws and now my new place of employment is a Gun Dealership - actually one of the largest Winchester dealers in Ohio. I do not care what your stance is on the 2nd, I like what I do right now - and I am a supporter of the 2nd, NRA, NWTF and a few others to say the least.

I never said I was in favor of gun regulation. That being said, I understand why we have gun laws. Gun laws are to protect society from crime, not to specifically impinge on you job. Whether they are successful or not is a totally different story. The second amendment was created to guarentee the publics right to overthrow an oppressive government, a right that was obviated with the invention of the tank. I live in a state where a majority of the population hunts. People aren't going to stop buying guns even if stricter gun laws do get passed.

Nykc, on 10 Oct, 2008 - 06:44 PM, said:

Both Obama and McCain are for the RIAA - another thing which I am against but just on these two issues alone McCain leads 1-0. I do not like big government, I was a Marine during the Clinton administration and let me tell you he made some pretty dumbass decisions.

RIAA = bad, unequivocably end of story. It's a universal truth.

If you don't like big government, how do you feel about the Dept of homeland security? What about the expansion of the Vice Presidential powers? Exactly what has bush done to contract government? Fire people that don't agree with his administration and replace them with plants? Oh i guess that the recent expansion of the treasury secretaries powers don't fall into that category since it happened on a republicans watch.

Nykc, on 10 Oct, 2008 - 06:44 PM, said:

Your boy Clinton also initiated and is responsible for the DMCA. The whole left wing is attacking every interest I have in regards to technology and control.

Key word CONTROL - the Left wants control.

The DMCA was voted upon and passed by the republican controlled congress of the time. I guess you can really thank Newt for that. The republican controlled congress of the time also passed huge expansions of copyright laws in general that are not only hurting software developers, but other artists as well. Perhaps instead of complaining about the DMCA you should try and develop something that is protected by it. I bet it would change your mind about it.

ALL POLITICIANS WANT CONTROL. That is why they went into politics. If people didn't want control over other people we wouldn't have a government. The right wants control too. The questions is, do you want them in your bedroom, or your pocket book? Take my money, but don't tell me I can't have a BJ because the bible says it's wrong.

Nykc, on 10 Oct, 2008 - 06:44 PM, said:

So what did Clinton do besides trade Nuclear secrets with N. Korea and let Obama slip through his fingers? Please elaborate, because last time the Democrats controlled the White House - he left a clusterfuck for our next president. You can bash Bush all you want, he is my President and I voted for him and I along with a whole lot of others will be voting for McCain.

Under Clinton we had:
1. A government that operated with a budget on a surplus
2. Good standing internationally and a leader that wasn't viewed by the world as a high functioning moron.
3. An actual balance of power that allowed government to be effective.
4. The largest increase in the GNP of our country in recorded history.

Also, the only war that Clinton got us into, we won. While the CIA was investigating Osama Bin Laden, Bush was in afghanistan negotiating with the Taliban leaders for a natural gas pipeline. You can blame the ineptitude and blatant partisanism of this administration for a lot of the world hating us. We had good relations with Iran and N. Korea until the whole "Axis of Evil". Iran in general has a very west friendly populace, but our "leader" insulting them allowed a very anti-american leader to be elected. Blaming the failures of the Bush administration on the Clinton administration is idiotic at best. Kind of like how Bush brought "Honor and Dignity" back to the office of the president.

The simple fact is that the majority of americans did not vote for bush. The majority of the electoral college did. Go ahead and vote for McCain, it's your right to do so. I don't think the majority of americans will be with you though.

Nykc, on 10 Oct, 2008 - 06:44 PM, said:

Canada is looking for some new residents though

Go ahead and say your peace, but I decided not to argue about politics anymore, it is pointless, and I will not change my mindset. I was a liberal once too. I was 17, young and dumb and I regret a lot of things I did back then. Then I became educated.

Canada is not in fact looking for new residents, but should McCain win, they will get a lot more. It's a sad state of affairs when the presidential election is enough to make people consider moving to another country. What does that tell you about the last 7 years? Was there suddenly going to be a huge influx of refugees fleeing to canada if Gore or Kerry were to be elected? Nope. But I love that whole "Ifn' you don' like merica move to russia" attitude it's very american and tolerant.

I'm not as much of a liberal as I am sick of the corruption of this administration. I don't see McCain as anything new. At one point he may have offered something new, but he's been too broken down by this administration as well. Also, why is it that if someone doesn't support bush or mccain they are automatically a liberal?

If you're so educated then allow me to say my PIECE and we'll be done. You can villify me all you want for not believing the same way as you, but don't assume for one second that 1. you are smarter than I am, or 2. more educated than I am. You don't know me. I am certainly not as young as you likely believe me to be. I have held a job at my company for over 10 years. Just because someone has a degree doesn't make them educated or intelligent. Some of the most ignorant and unintelligent people I have ever met held degrees. It doesn't take a brain to get a degree, just a willingness to do the work.

Nykc, on 10 Oct, 2008 - 06:44 PM, said:

edit - Last I checked the Congress had a lower approval rating than Bush. What does that say about the Democratic party?

Did you vote for Ted Stevens, Larry Craig, Nancy Pelosi, Bill Sali, Mike Crapo, Mike Simpson, Harry Reid, John McCain, or Barack Obama for their positions in congress? No? Neither did I, but despite the fact that several of the people I have mentioned are from my state I didn't vote for a single one of them. It's easy for me to say congress if full of jerkoffs, because I didn't vote for them. It's like that with the majority of americans.

The republican controlled congress had an even lower approval rating which is why many incumbent republicans lost their seats in the last round and likely this round of elections.

Now, can we stop this?

[Programmist]

Man - you guys obviously had an agenda attacking the rev here. He was posting about his job situation and you use it as a platform to spew your off-topic partisan rhetoric. I know the rev doesn't need any help defending himself, but let me say this. It's one thing to have big government. It's another thing to have big, incompetent government (e.g. The Bush administration). I'm not saying big gov is better or worse, but it's certainly better than incompetent gov like the current administration or those who would follow in its path. BTW - I noticed you like to use labels. I'm sure you'd like to call me a "lefty", but you'd be wrong. (Incidentally I've voted for republicans, libertarians, democrats, and independents). Labels - especially those that limit one's beliefs to one political party - are for small minds.

Maybe you think that the rev is being hypocritical. Maybe you disagree with his views. But I really don't think hijacking his post and ganging up on him was the best way to express that. But he's obviously nicer than I am. If it were my thread you were hijacking I'd have told you both to p*ss off from the start.

[baavgai]

I'll second Programmist. When I saw Kya's response I was confused. I reread the original post, seeing nothing relating to left vs. right BS. Assumed it was provoked by something unrelated that I'd ignored. While I thought to debate the questionable point, it really seemed so out of place I figured to just let it drop as it should.

Then I peek back in to find this weird, sad, partisan tag team thing dripping agenda.

Good luck with the job thing, Dave. We may all be in for a more turbulent ride than we expect.

[skyhawk133]

Keep it on the topic of The Rev's job and general job crisis in the tech industry. Leave the politics in the Heated Topics forum.

[Damage]

wow even when he's getting married Skyhawk still finds time to come in and lay down the law. He sees all and knows all