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Rationalization, how far is too far

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The Pirate Bay trial and news has sparked many a debate on the act of pirating and downloading pirated content, software, music and movies. I have sat and listened to people (well actually read their drivel) saying that the owners of The Pirate Bay didn't do anything wrong because they didn't actually pirate anything. This kind of logic scares me, I actually had one person say that they know where to get drugs but that doesn't make him a drug dealer. It's this kind of logic that just makes my blood boil. Yes, knowing where to get the drugs isn't illegal, but if you facilitate the purchase of said drugs then that is illegal, and that is exactly what The Pirate Bay did, they facilitated the acquiring of pirated content.

One person said that it wasn't exactly stealing because the owner of said content still has their content after it is downloaded, but I call bullshit on that logic as well. Stealing is stealing, no matter what medium is being sold. The sad part of all this is it's the younger generation that is spewing this kind of argument (I'm not part of that generation, I was actually raised with morals and ethics, which is more than I can say of a large members of said generation). With the logic they're using should Charles Manson really be in prison (Before you blowup, I'm not a Charles Manson fan or supporter, I feel he is a horrible human that shouldn't be allowed to breath)? I mean he didnt actually kill anyone, he got others to do his work for him. In all honestly how is this any different than The Pirate Bay and other sites like it. They may not be holding the pirated content, but they are facilitating the acquisition of said material. Charles Manson facilitated the murder of those people. His crime may be more heinous (taking a life is the worst one can do in my mind)< but it follows the same plan as The Pirate Bay and all the other sites just like it.

Do I feel that those who download pirated content should be treated just like those who walk into a store and steal a CD, you damn straight I do, as their is really no difference between the two. Stealing is stealing no matter how it is conducted. In some cases, as with The Pirate Bay, they should be punished more severely depending on the monetary value of the crime. The real sad part about this, is it's a lot of people who call themselves programmers who are supporting this kind of behavior. As programmers we provide software for clients, who sell it to their consumers, and I for one dont like people stealing my work because they somehow feel they are entitled to it, whether they pay for it or not. Owning software is a privileged, not a right. You are not entitles to have a copy of Windows just because you are alive.

These pirating bandits justify their actions because software companies, music producers (and the artists) and movie houses charge too much for their products. How do these people get the right to say whether something's too much money? The price is set at what the market will support. Windows price is what it is because people will pay for it, so why shouldn't they charge that? People go to Baseball and Football games, even though the price of tickets is through the roof. I dont see people not going to sporting events even though what these athletes are being paid is ridiculous.

People, stealing is stealing no matter how you rationalize it. You can use all the justification and rationalization you want, you're still a thief.

Now, let the flaming begin :)

24 Comments On This Entry

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Smurphy 

23 April 2009 - 10:50 AM
Guess what here is a 19 year old (so from this generation) and he going to, A. Flame you or B. Agree. Guess what I totally agree with you. I hate things like lime wire I am probably one of the only kids that actually uses I tunes to legally download. I don't believe in pirating movies or music. Stealing is stealing and ya all these people that rationalize it are just stupid.
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KYA 

23 April 2009 - 12:27 PM
The answer lies somewhere in the middle. No rationalization required.
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Nykc 

23 April 2009 - 01:38 PM
I won't flame ya, but we can agree to disagree.

Coming from an older member.
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c0mrade 

23 April 2009 - 02:39 PM
But how can you deny the difference between copyright infringement and stealing?

It's a well defined fact that they are different...
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grimpirate 

23 April 2009 - 03:12 PM

Quote

The Pirate Bay trial and news has sparked many a debate on the act of pirating and downloading pirated content, software, music and movies. I have sat and listened to people (well actually read their drivel) saying that the owners of The Pirate Bay didn't do anything wrong because they didn't actually pirate anything. This kind of logic scares me, I actually had one person say that they know where to get drugs but that doesn't make him a drug dealer. It's this kind of logic that just makes my blood boil. Yes, knowing where to get the drugs isn't illegal, but if you facilitate the purchase of said drugs then that is illegal, and that is exactly what The Pirate Bay did, they facilitated the acquiring of pirated content.
That wasn't someone, that was me specifically who said that. I'm not facilitating the selling of drugs. Knowledge of something does not make you a facilitator. Not reporting it, doesn't make you a facilitator. Your logic and flagrant misapplication of the word FACILITATE, specifically within the context of a crime, is ridiculous. Guns facilitate robberies. VCR's facilitate recording. CD/DVD burners facilitate copying. Xerox machines facilitate copying, and if you've ever stopped at a local office store they typically have signs saying that photocopying large portions of copyrighted material that you do not own is against the law, printers facilitate copying, and the list goes on to infinity. The MISUSE BY INDIVIDUALS given a particular technology or apparatus is the fault of said end user and THERE is where the crime occurs. Isn't that why there's such a thing as End User Agreements? By condemning The Pirate Bay you're simply condemning torrent technology altogether.

facilitator
1. a person or thing that facilitates.
2. a person responsible for leading or coordinating the work of a group, as one who leads a group discussion: Each committee will meet with its facilitator.

facilitate
1. To make easy or easier

Firstly, read a freaking dictionary. Second, don't claim your ethics or morals are superior to anyone else's.

To take it to more hyperbole, whenever you used your pencil to copy notes from one of your textbooks without giving proper MLA style citation you committed copyright infringement. Your disregard for the law sickens me sir. Pencils are facilitators of piracy.
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ccubed 

23 April 2009 - 03:48 PM
Agreed. Providing links to torrents is not inherenetly illegal. Taking action against the pirate bay is taking action against Torrenting as a whole. However, not everything on the pirate bay is illegal.

A few examples:

Anarchy Online clients
Several other MMO clients are offered through torrents legally
Several open source programs are distributed through torrents
Several indie groups release movies/songs through torrents
Last I heard, NIN was realeasing albums through torrents (legally)

So taking out the pirate bay basically says "There are no legal torrents." And that sir is the bullshit.
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PsychoCoder 

23 April 2009 - 04:36 PM

grimpirate, on 23 Apr, 2009 - 01:12 PM, said:

That wasn't someone, that was me specifically who said that. I'm not facilitating the selling of drugs. Knowledge of something does not make you a facilitator. Not reporting it, doesn't make you a facilitator. Your logic and flagrant misapplication of the word FACILITATE, specifically within the context of a crime, is ridiculous. Guns facilitate robberies. VCR's facilitate recording. CD/DVD burners facilitate copying. Xerox machines facilitate copying, and if you've ever stopped at a local office store they typically have signs saying that photocopying large portions of copyrighted material that you do not own is against the law, printers facilitate copying, and the list goes on to infinity. The MISUSE BY INDIVIDUALS given a particular technology or apparatus is the fault of said end user and THERE is where the crime occurs. Isn't that why there's such a thing as End User Agreements? By condemning The Pirate Bay you're simply condemning torrent technology altogether.


Your logic is quite scary. You telling me where to buy drugs may not be a crime, but taking me to get them is. That is no different than what the losers who own The Pirate Bay are doing, they're saying "Not only do I know where you can get illegal pirated software, I'll take you to get it", which makes them pukes (and obviously you as well since you seem to support what they do). Pirating software is stealing, I don't give a fuck how you chose to justify or rationalize it. There are 2 things in life I cannot stand, for someone to lie to me and for someone to steal from me. All it takes is a single lie to me for me to despise that individual, and all it takes is to steal from me one time before I come after you with my gun.

Thieves are shit, thieves are worthless human beings using perfectly good oxygen that some good individual could use someday. I think we should, well simply put if someone steals they should either be shot of have their hands cut off for doing it. Is this harsh, might be but it is how I feel and nothing will ever change that. Thieves are complete and utter shit, and if you pirate software then, well you fall into that category).
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ccubed 

23 April 2009 - 04:58 PM
Why does it keep double posting!? -_-
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ccubed 

23 April 2009 - 05:00 PM

PsychoCoder, on 23 Apr, 2009 - 03:36 PM, said:

grimpirate, on 23 Apr, 2009 - 01:12 PM, said:

That wasn't someone, that was me specifically who said that. I'm not facilitating the selling of drugs. Knowledge of something does not make you a facilitator. Not reporting it, doesn't make you a facilitator. Your logic and flagrant misapplication of the word FACILITATE, specifically within the context of a crime, is ridiculous. Guns facilitate robberies. VCR's facilitate recording. CD/DVD burners facilitate copying. Xerox machines facilitate copying, and if you've ever stopped at a local office store they typically have signs saying that photocopying large portions of copyrighted material that you do not own is against the law, printers facilitate copying, and the list goes on to infinity. The MISUSE BY INDIVIDUALS given a particular technology or apparatus is the fault of said end user and THERE is where the crime occurs. Isn't that why there's such a thing as End User Agreements? By condemning The Pirate Bay you're simply condemning torrent technology altogether.


Your logic is quite scary. You telling me where to buy drugs may not be a crime, but taking me to get them is. That is no different than what the losers who own The Pirate Bay are doing, they're saying "Not only do I know where you can get illegal pirated software, I'll take you to get it", which makes them pukes (and obviously you as well since you seem to support what they do). Pirating software is stealing, I don't give a fuck how you chose to justify or rationalize it. There are 2 things in life I cannot stand, for someone to lie to me and for someone to steal from me. All it takes is a single lie to me for me to despise that individual, and all it takes is to steal from me one time before I come after you with my gun.

Thieves are shit, thieves are worthless human beings using perfectly good oxygen that some good individual could use someday. I think we should, well simply put if someone steals they should either be shot of have their hands cut off for doing it. Is this harsh, might be but it is how I feel and nothing will ever change that. Thieves are complete and utter shit, and if you pirate software then, well you fall into that category).


I just googled Black Eyed Peas music videos and was directed to a youtube video and several other sites where I can download it. By your logic, Google should now be sued because Google is saying "Not only do I know where illegal music video downloads are, I'll take you to them." In life, IE on the street, you're an accomplice if you take someone to drugs; these same rules cannot apply to the internet for various purposes. So please, get off your high horse. I repeat, The Pirate Bay doesn't only host illegal torrents. If they did, it would be different. Even if 80% of TPB was illegal torrents, 20% are not and therefore, all TPB has to do is get rid of the 80%, not their site.
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KYA 

23 April 2009 - 05:24 PM

PsychoCoder, on 23 Apr, 2009 - 04:36 PM, said:

grimpirate, on 23 Apr, 2009 - 01:12 PM, said:

That wasn't someone, that was me specifically who said that. I'm not facilitating the selling of drugs. Knowledge of something does not make you a facilitator. Not reporting it, doesn't make you a facilitator. Your logic and flagrant misapplication of the word FACILITATE, specifically within the context of a crime, is ridiculous. Guns facilitate robberies. VCR's facilitate recording. CD/DVD burners facilitate copying. Xerox machines facilitate copying, and if you've ever stopped at a local office store they typically have signs saying that photocopying large portions of copyrighted material that you do not own is against the law, printers facilitate copying, and the list goes on to infinity. The MISUSE BY INDIVIDUALS given a particular technology or apparatus is the fault of said end user and THERE is where the crime occurs. Isn't that why there's such a thing as End User Agreements? By condemning The Pirate Bay you're simply condemning torrent technology altogether.


Your logic is quite scary. You telling me where to buy drugs may not be a crime, but taking me to get them is. That is no different than what the losers who own The Pirate Bay are doing, they're saying "Not only do I know where you can get illegal pirated software, I'll take you to get it", which makes them pukes (and obviously you as well since you seem to support what they do). Pirating software is stealing, I don't give a fuck how you chose to justify or rationalize it. There are 2 things in life I cannot stand, for someone to lie to me and for someone to steal from me. All it takes is a single lie to me for me to despise that individual, and all it takes is to steal from me one time before I come after you with my gun.

Thieves are shit, thieves are worthless human beings using perfectly good oxygen that some good individual could use someday. I think we should, well simply put if someone steals they should either be shot of have their hands cut off for doing it. Is this harsh, might be but it is how I feel and nothing will ever change that. Thieves are complete and utter shit, and if you pirate software then, well you fall into that category).



Let's get rid of the internet in its entirety. Letting people access information is dangerous. Google indexes torrents, yahoo indexes torrents, MSN indexes torrents. The information is out there regardless.
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PsychoCoder 

23 April 2009 - 05:26 PM

ccubed, on 23 Apr, 2009 - 03:00 PM, said:

I just googled Black Eyed Peas music videos and was directed to a youtube video and several other sites where I can download it. By your logic, Google should now be sued because Google is saying "Not only do I know where illegal music video downloads are, I'll take you to them." In life, IE on the street, you're an accomplice if you take someone to drugs; these same rules cannot apply to the internet for various purposes. So please, get off your high horse. I repeat, The Pirate Bay doesn't only host illegal torrents. If they did, it would be different. Even if 80% of TPB was illegal torrents, 20% are not and therefore, all TPB has to do is get rid of the 80%, not their site.


As I have already pointed out several times that logic is flawed. Google cant be blamed for someone misusing their site for illegal activity's, TBP cannot use that argument because their main purpose is directing people to pirated items. That's like saying GM should be held liable because someone used their car to kill someone. GM makes care for a purpose and it's not for killing people. Google is a search engine, it isn't intended for illegal purposes but some will misuse it for that. TBP markets itself for finding pirated content, thus it's not being misused for that purpose.
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KYA 

23 April 2009 - 05:41 PM

PsychoCoder, on 23 Apr, 2009 - 05:26 PM, said:

ccubed, on 23 Apr, 2009 - 03:00 PM, said:

I just googled Black Eyed Peas music videos and was directed to a youtube video and several other sites where I can download it. By your logic, Google should now be sued because Google is saying "Not only do I know where illegal music video downloads are, I'll take you to them." In life, IE on the street, you're an accomplice if you take someone to drugs; these same rules cannot apply to the internet for various purposes. So please, get off your high horse. I repeat, The Pirate Bay doesn't only host illegal torrents. If they did, it would be different. Even if 80% of TPB was illegal torrents, 20% are not and therefore, all TPB has to do is get rid of the 80%, not their site.


As I have already pointed out several times that logic is flawed. Google cant be blamed for someone misusing their site for illegal activity's, TBP cannot use that argument because their main purpose is directing people to pirated items. That's like saying GM should be held liable because someone used their car to kill someone. GM makes care for a purpose and it's not for killing people. Google is a search engine, it isn't intended for illegal purposes but some will misuse it for that. TBP markets itself for finding pirated content, thus it's not being misused for that purpose.


It is there to direct people to torrents. As already mentioned there are many many legal reasons to use torrents.
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ccubed 

23 April 2009 - 05:55 PM

KYA, on 23 Apr, 2009 - 04:41 PM, said:

PsychoCoder, on 23 Apr, 2009 - 05:26 PM, said:

ccubed, on 23 Apr, 2009 - 03:00 PM, said:

I just googled Black Eyed Peas music videos and was directed to a youtube video and several other sites where I can download it. By your logic, Google should now be sued because Google is saying "Not only do I know where illegal music video downloads are, I'll take you to them." In life, IE on the street, you're an accomplice if you take someone to drugs; these same rules cannot apply to the internet for various purposes. So please, get off your high horse. I repeat, The Pirate Bay doesn't only host illegal torrents. If they did, it would be different. Even if 80% of TPB was illegal torrents, 20% are not and therefore, all TPB has to do is get rid of the 80%, not their site.


As I have already pointed out several times that logic is flawed. Google cant be blamed for someone misusing their site for illegal activity's, TBP cannot use that argument because their main purpose is directing people to pirated items. That's like saying GM should be held liable because someone used their car to kill someone. GM makes care for a purpose and it's not for killing people. Google is a search engine, it isn't intended for illegal purposes but some will misuse it for that. TBP markets itself for finding pirated content, thus it's not being misused for that purpose.


It is there to direct people to torrents. As already mentioned there are many many legal reasons to use torrents.
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ccubed 

23 April 2009 - 05:57 PM

KYA, on 23 Apr, 2009 - 04:41 PM, said:

PsychoCoder, on 23 Apr, 2009 - 05:26 PM, said:

ccubed, on 23 Apr, 2009 - 03:00 PM, said:

I just googled Black Eyed Peas music videos and was directed to a youtube video and several other sites where I can download it. By your logic, Google should now be sued because Google is saying "Not only do I know where illegal music video downloads are, I'll take you to them." In life, IE on the street, you're an accomplice if you take someone to drugs; these same rules cannot apply to the internet for various purposes. So please, get off your high horse. I repeat, The Pirate Bay doesn't only host illegal torrents. If they did, it would be different. Even if 80% of TPB was illegal torrents, 20% are not and therefore, all TPB has to do is get rid of the 80%, not their site.


As I have already pointed out several times that logic is flawed. Google cant be blamed for someone misusing their site for illegal activity's, TBP cannot use that argument because their main purpose is directing people to pirated items. That's like saying GM should be held liable because someone used their car to kill someone. GM makes care for a purpose and it's not for killing people. Google is a search engine, it isn't intended for illegal purposes but some will misuse it for that. TBP markets itself for finding pirated content, thus it's not being misused for that purpose.


It is there to direct people to torrents. As already mentioned there are many many legal reasons to use torrents.



I do have to agree with him that TPB does market itself as illegal downloads though KYA. I mean, just poke over at www.thepiratebay.org/legal . At the same time, I don't think they should have to take down their site as long as they remove illegal torrents. My only point is that torrents aren't illegal, only torrents with copyrighted material are illegal.
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KYA 

23 April 2009 - 06:59 PM
LOL. Their responses are unprofessional, but hilarious. If they weren't violating Swedish law I don't see the problem (from a legal perspective).
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ccubed 

23 April 2009 - 07:30 PM

KYA, on 23 Apr, 2009 - 05:59 PM, said:

LOL. Their responses are unprofessional, but hilarious. If they weren't violating Swedish law I don't see the problem (from a legal perspective).


Exactly. My only point was, with responses like that, the fact that someone finally got a case through in Sweden, really shouldn't surprise them. Also with responses like that, they've pretty much said that they're there for illegal torrents too. So you can see why they lost the case. Sometimes the best response is no response. Still, they shouldn't have been forced to remove their site, which was the court ruling AFAIK. I think the site should have stayed but the illegal torrents should have been taken down - not that that would stop the TPB members for long. :P
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KYA 

23 April 2009 - 08:47 PM
isohunt, mininova, demonoid, etc...
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The Architect 2.0 

24 April 2009 - 12:14 AM
theres a HUGE difference between Google and TPB. honestly, you need to reconsider your logical process if you think otherwise.

i agree entirely with the OP. stealing is stealing. don't bother trying to justify it. it just makes you look worse in the end; be a man about it and admit what you're doing.

that said, i don't think poorly of torrents in the slightest. i personally torrent a music file a year and i'm not doing any harm. why? because i wouldn't have bothered to buy the CD or buy it online in any case - coupled with the absolutely minscule amount of content i do have. most of the time, i end up watching it on youtube. you COULD argue that i'm not 'supporting' the internet 'economy'(through ads) by torrenting the content that i do, but thats entirely another matter.


but please, enough with this 'its not the same as stealing' BS.
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Anthaas 

24 April 2009 - 03:22 AM
This comment is more related to your fourth paragraph.

The idea of these pirating bandits justifying their actions by saying that prices set by software companies, music producers, etc. are too high is a ridiculous argument. The fact is they will copy it because they can and its a lot cheaper for them to do so. They wouldnt use the same argument with a computer console, or a refrigerator because they couldnt make any of those. This leaves their argument unjustified.
The fact that windows will sell a product at a price because the market can support it and people will pay for it, however, isn't particularly fair on the consumer. Some people are better off than others, some might be able to reach into their back pocket and buy a completely new system whereas others might have to scrape the money together over months. Companies should respect that the mark up on some of their products is unnecessarily high. They are making MASSIVE profit, which is good business, however it would be possible for them to reduce their prices by a fair amount and still make an extremely large profit. This is more directed at companies which deal with software. Quite often computer games, and software such as Microsoft Office cost extremely large amounts. I respect that they have to pay the programmers, and countless number of other people, as well as bills, taxes, and other wages, it would interesting to know the lowest price which they could go and still survive comfortably. I think this would also boost the number of sales which they make.
Your comment about sports professionals being paid ridiculous amounts. Here in England we believe the same thing, football (soccer) players are being paid unreasonable amounts for kicking a ball around a field and (if you're lucky) into a net. Doctors are saving lives day in, day out and still getting paid less. However, the way I see it is that Doctors are being paid by the NHS and Government, football players are being paid privately, so ultimately it comes down to the owner of their club to decide how much they get paid, after all it is coming out of their pocket and nobody elses.
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ccubed 

24 April 2009 - 05:44 AM

The Architect 2.0, on 23 Apr, 2009 - 11:14 PM, said:

theres a HUGE difference between Google and TPB. honestly, you need to reconsider your logical process if you think otherwise.

i agree entirely with the OP. stealing is stealing. don't bother trying to justify it. it just makes you look worse in the end; be a man about it and admit what you're doing.

that said, i don't think poorly of torrents in the slightest. i personally torrent a music file a year and i'm not doing any harm. why? because i wouldn't have bothered to buy the CD or buy it online in any case - coupled with the absolutely minscule amount of content i do have. most of the time, i end up watching it on youtube. you COULD argue that i'm not 'supporting' the internet 'economy'(through ads) by torrenting the content that i do, but thats entirely another matter.


but please, enough with this 'its not the same as stealing' BS.


The point was that both Google and TPB index torrents and neither should be forced off the internet. A search engine, which is what TPB is, cannot distinguish between illegal and legal content. They should remove the illegal torrents slowly and keep legal ones. However, forcing TPB to remove their servers and take down their site is BS. Like I said, if you do that, you're simply saying legal torrents don't exist - which as discussed, is false.

As for stealing, yeah, it is. What's your point? I'm not trying to justify it, however I am saying that taking websites down is and should be a violation of human rights. They have the right to have a website if all it hosts is legal torrents. Really though, what exactly does this solve? You think about 10 more torrent indexers won't pop up now to take TPB's spot? Not to mention that TPB has already moved to another country where Sweden can't force the removal of the page anymore.
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