[Sethro117]

On the topic of violence, any of yall have the reports of burglaries, muggings, homicides committed by Marijuana addicts users vs Meth, Coke, Herion addicts and just plain ol'e scumbags? Id like to see those to make sense with this argument of violence and marijuana.

PsychoCoder, on 27 Sep, 2009 - 10:22 PM, said:

Jaakuuta, on 24 Sep, 2009 - 09:01 AM, said:

While it may effect your mind, it's not really in a very negative way, and not nearly as much as something like alcohol. You can smoke a whole bag of weed and still not be nearly as messed up as you would if you downed a whole bottle of alcohol. With weed, you'd probably just walk slowly or fall asleep. Alcohol, you'd probably throw up, pass out, and possibly end up with alcohol poisoning. So while it may affect your mind a little bit, it's not nearly as drastic as other things.
Aside from that, it should also be a matter of where you're using something. Of course you shouldn't be using something that will make you unable to think normally while driving or working, but if you're in your own home or out in the wilderness then it shouldn't be a problem.

That's a horrible rationalization. Marijuana kills brain cells (It's been proven time and time again) thus making you dumb as a box of rocks over time, while alcohol works on your liver & kidneys. While I dont drink or smoke marijuana I think killing brain cells would be more detrimental to my career than doing damage to my liver.

From Live Science:

Quote

It is not the brain cells themselves but the nerve connections between them (called dendrites) which are most affected by alcohol. The communication signals are inhibited, thus slowing down mental processing and the central nervous system. But the brain cells themselves bounce back with no damage for the most part.

Whereas with Marijuana it's the actual cells that are adversely affected, along with the damage it does to your lungs (You can live with a single kidney but having a lung removed makes life much harder to live)

You forgot to mention the liver. You have to have a liver to live too.

This post has been edited by sh250080: 28 September 2009 - 06:01 PM

[modi123_1]

sh250080, on 28 Sep, 2009 - 07:03 PM, said:

On the topic of violence, any of yall have the reports of burglaries, muggings, homicides committed by Marijuana addicts users vs Meth, Coke, Herion addicts and just plain ol'e scumbags? Id like to see those to make sense with this argument of violence and marijuana.

Thank you google? http://www.nebraskap...naviolence.html

[Sethro117]

modi123_1, on 28 Sep, 2009 - 06:28 PM, said:

sh250080, on 28 Sep, 2009 - 07:03 PM, said:

On the topic of violence, any of yall have the reports of burglaries, muggings, homicides committed by Marijuana addicts users vs Meth, Coke, Herion addicts and just plain ol'e scumbags? Id like to see those to make sense with this argument of violence and marijuana.

Thank you google? http://www.nebraskap...naviolence.html

That article talks about Inner-City youth. The Inner-City organization you see are these not for low income families who see violence, drug use, domestic abuse etc everyday? That shits a regualr walk in the park for them. So why ask those that are already at-risk about how they feel when they environmental factors are playing a major role too? Lets ask the teenagers in middle to high income families about this.

[KYA]

gabehabe, on 28 Sep, 2009 - 03:14 AM, said:

I'd rather have marijuana than alcohol.

Alcohol invokes a lot of violence.

[DaneAU]

Yea and skitzos on weed don't tend to have bong snaps and become savage, sorry but it wrecks homes - i have seen it 2 times in my life and its young people who suffer. Legalising it just breeds a society of mess. Get over the legalizing crap as it will not happen in any of our lifetimes. It is a drug, if it stops habitual use which any drug user is of any form then its a good move. As many have said, lets just make it legal and watch the next generations slowly digress towards a stagnant and depression lifestyle / environment.

[Bort]

Quote

Faith... you know if God really exists, I have to say. He's a bitch.

"I just created man kind, what now? I know lets fuck around with them. I'll make everyone believe in me without evidence and make them worship me. If they don't, I'll banish them forever to the worst possible place. Genuis, to top it off I'll send some very questionable, seemingly crazy guy down there to tell them." Takes another hit of his bong "I'm amazing"

There you go. If you ever needed any reason why it should be legal....God smoked it

This post has been edited by Bort: 29 September 2009 - 01:25 AM

[Jaakuuta]

bbq, on 28 Sep, 2009 - 11:23 PM, said:

Yea and skitzos on weed don't tend to have bong snaps and become savage, sorry but it wrecks homes - i have seen it 2 times in my life and its young people who suffer. Legalising it just breeds a society of mess. Get over the legalizing crap as it will not happen in any of our lifetimes. It is a drug, if it stops habitual use which any drug user is of any form then its a good move. As many have said, lets just make it legal and watch the next generations slowly digress towards a stagnant and depression lifestyle / environment.

The only people that I've ever seen it "wreck homes" for are bitchy parents and the like who don't want their kids to do it. That argument is almost as bad as saying something like "gay people wreck homes" because it's basically the same sentiment. It would only "wreck" things if the parent can't and/or doesn't want to deal with it and makes a fuss about it.
As for causing a society of mess, if anything like that were to happen, it would have happened a long time ago, not that it hasn't already, and it wouldn't be any worse than people drinking alcohol. Why is it that if somebody wants to come home after a long day at work and sit down to relax that they have to submit to drinking a foul-tasting liquid that will likely cause more pain than it's worth just to relax when they could come home and light up a doobie instead and not have to worry about whether they're going to wake up with a hangover or throw up then pass out from nausea and possibly choke on their own vomit while they're asleep?

[ForcedSterilizationsForAll]

Why do the parents not want the kids to do it? And trying to say smoking dope is on par with being gay is a crock and you know it. Smoking dope is a choice, being gay is not. The reason people have a problem with those that are gay is largely religious based.

Trying to argue against the fact that it would cause a large societal mess if it were legal because it would have already happened is not a valid argument. There already is a problem with stoners, making it legal would just increase that. It's just like the problems with alcohol.

Look at how many lives alcohol has ruined, do you not think pot would do the same amount of damage? It's already fried your ability to coherently argue your points.

Why do you think that it wouldn't be any worse than alcohol?

Who said you have to drink to relax? You don't like the taste of booze, I can't stand the stench of pot. You're acting like everyone comes home from work and the only way to relax is to drink themselves into a stupor.

Maybe if you were sober you'd be able to draw better conclusions, compare apples to apples, and see reality for what it really is. Instead you're making illogical comparisons.

You are the poster child of why pot should remain illegal.

[modi123_1]

Jaakuuta, on 29 Sep, 2009 - 04:33 AM, said:

The only people that I've ever seen it "wreck homes" for are bitchy parents and the like who don't want their kids to do it.

Concerned and actively engaged parents - a.k.a. bitchy - wreck homes? God forbid the parents take an active role in parenting to such a degree that they would actively DISCOURAGE their children from using controlled substances that can warp their developing minds. Oh noes!

Jaakuuta, on 29 Sep, 2009 - 04:33 AM, said:

That argument is almost as bad as saying something like "gay people wreck homes" because it's basically the same sentiment.

Sure.. exactly the same with one being a choice and one not. What the hell are you trying to say?

Jaakuuta, on 29 Sep, 2009 - 04:33 AM, said:

It would only "wreck" things if the parent can't and/or doesn't want to deal with it and makes a fuss about it.

This contradicts your first statement. See above. Active parents for the win.

Jaakuuta, on 29 Sep, 2009 - 04:33 AM, said:

As for causing a society of mess, if anything like that were to happen, it would have happened a long time ago, not that it hasn't already, and it wouldn't be any worse than people drinking alcohol.

It can be said that it is already slowly happening and the only thing keeping the flood gates IS THE DEA and the LAWS. You keep comparing it to alcohol and some how "can't be worse" then you go exaggerate the detriments of alcohol below. God if your over the top exaggeration for alcohol are even remotely to be considered and pots on the same level then for god sakes KEEP IT BANNED! INCREASE PENALTIES!

Jaakuuta, on 29 Sep, 2009 - 04:33 AM, said:

Why is it that if somebody wants to come home after a long day at work and sit down to relax that they have to submit to drinking a foul-tasting liquid that will likely cause more pain than it's worth just to relax when they could come home and light up a doobie instead and not have to worry about whether they're going to wake up with a hangover or throw up then pass out from nausea and possibly choke on their own vomit while they're asleep?

Here you go again making far flung exaggerations. I ask if you are against this 'foul tasting liquid' why come home and inhale a foul smelling carcinogenic?

Second one drink won't get your puking nor hung over nor passed out and certainly won't have you choke on your own vomit. One's liver is very good at processing things like this. It's usually one hour to process one drink. Now THC on the other hand stays in your system for about thirty days. Wow! Looks like the body doesn't like processing that. Oh and even if you over indulge in too much alcohol that vomiting is your body's way of lending a helping hand and removing the booze.. sorry you can't puke up THC you just over smoked on.

Third let's not down play the affects of pot if we are playing the min/max impact game... long and short term memory loss which leads to parents forgetting children and them drowning in a tub or a house fire for forgetting dinner in the oven... loss of coordination.. delayed reaction time that causes car pile ups... loss of drive and motivation thus you becoming a wasteoid and not a productive member of society... horrific violence to steal more pot or money to buy pot.. violence from paranoia and a "bad trip".. broken homes from one member not participating equally with the not pot head.. and let's toss in gateway to other more hard core drugs with a plethora of side effects.

Fourth you previously said you use it to relax... have you tried alternative options for relaxation instead of a hallucinogenic controlled substance? Meditation is a legal and safe alternative. Bam - a clear alternative you refuse to take.

So what *is* the root argument for legalization? There has yet to be a clear presented case on any front.
- Min/maxing impacts between pot and booze is not efficient especially when you claim the effects of pot is on part with booze.
- Trying to say it shouldn't have been banned is not an argument for why we should unban it.
- Relaxation - there is a clear alternative presented.
- Any form of 'hippy peace' is tainted due to you having to consume a substance to obtain it.. Working for peace sans altered is a better and more functional game.
- There is no clear benefit to legalizing it (arguing other things have no benefit is not an argument nor presents a benefit for pot).
- Tax revenue has been argued and no one has a clear plan since the detractors outweigh the modicum of money to come in.
- Oddly the medical benefits (probably the ONLY reason to) have not been discussed. My guess is that would not help the casual junkie who is not dying of cancer.

[Sethro117]

Yea Jaakuuta, your argument points are losing ground.

[KYA]

Beer doesn't taste nasty. Maybe you just drink swill.

[Jaakuuta]

Regardless of what you think of my arguments and whether they are valid or not, you still seem to be missing the biggest point of all if you're not hurting anybody, why does it matter what you do?
As for a gateway drug, that's a bunch of bull that people say as propaganda.
One's rights should not be a matter of what you can't do but what you can do. Saying that the fact that it shouldn't have been made illegal in the first place is an invalid argument is wrong.
As for the comparison with somebody saying they're gay, I merely mean that it's just another one of those insignificant things that parents like to bitch about because they're old-fashioned.
Carcinogen? yeah right... not nearly as much as cigarettes...
Hallucinogen? yeah, I'll tell you when I see things start to move and hear weird echoes and the like next time I have a smoke lol
Beer doesn't taste any nastier than weed, it's all a matter of opinion. I find most alcohols gross-tasting, whereas I find most weed rather pleasant tasting...
As for being able to argue my points... I can argue them just fine, it's you people that go out of your way to try to find fault with them. That's not my fault. At least I don't resort to insulting people just because I can't think of anything better to say. (I know I may have made a few joking remarks, but they haven't been directing towards anybody in particular)
As for being allowed for medical reasons, if it helps medically, there should be no question. Thus that point didn't even need to be said, it should just be a given.
As for taxes, why should it be any different from cigarettes?
As for parents getting short term memory and forgetting their children and whatnot is one of the biggest loads I've seen so far. That's not the weed, that's just bad parenting. Regardless of what you're doing, you shouldn't put your kids in such a situation where something like that could happen in the first place.
If people don't want to be motivated, that's up to their own willpower. There are people who aren't motivated that don't even smoke weed and there are people who are still very motivated who do smoke weed so this doesn't really work.
Not to mention all that other bs after that.
Horrific violence to score? Don't make me laugh.
Hallucinations and paranoia? A bad trip? Wtf are you getting this garbage? The only time you'll get a bad trip is on a more powerful hallucinogen like Psilocin.
As for relaxation, indeed there are alternatives, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to use it to relax if you want to.
As for no clear benefit for legalizing it, it shouldn't have to benefit people to exist. That's like saying swamplands don't benefit people so we should just get rid of them and ruin all the native creatures' ecosystems just to build a mall so that it can benefit us.
You say you haven't seen any solid arguments as to why it should be legalized, I'm saying I haven't seen any solid arguments as to why it should be illegal in the first place. Just saying that "I like it" or "you don't like it" is insufficient.
Saying that "it was made illegal before so even though there's no good reason why it should still be illegal doesn't mean we should legalize it" is like putting diapers on a kid when they're younger because you feel there's a need for it at the time but then decide that it may be useful for them when they're older and there's no longer a need for it so you make them keep it on anyway for their own good.

This post has been edited by Jaakuuta: 29 September 2009 - 12:04 PM

[syfran]

Quote

Regardless of what you think of my arguments and whether they are valid or not, you still seem to be missing the biggest point of all if you're not hurting anybody, why does it matter what you do?

From the link I quoted below,

Quote

# A Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services report showed that marijuana-using teens themselves said they were more prone than non-users to behaviors such as destruction of property and physical attacks on other teens.
# The same self-report study showed that young people who use marijuana are four times more likely to engage in violence and three times more likely than non-users to consider suicide (violence against themselves).

Did you even look at that page?

In addition it degrades society, which inherently hurts everyone.

Quote

As for a gateway drug, that's a bunch of bull that people say as propaganda.

It certainly doesn't help, and I have a feeling its going to be the 'legal gateway' drug. After weed they will start trying to legalize others.

Quote

One's rights should not be a matter of what you can't do but what you can do. Saying that the fact that it shouldn't have been made illegal in the first place is an invalid argument is wrong.
As for the comparison with somebody saying they're gay, I merely mean that it's just another one of those insignificant things that parents like to bitch about because they're old-fashioned.

Carcinogen? yeah right... not nearly as much as cigarettes...

And cigarettes should be illegal. I'm sure if they could make alcohol and cigarettes illegal, they would. but they can't. If you haven't been reading my posts they're not going to make the same mistake with weed.

Quote

Hallucinogen? yeah, I'll tell you when I see things start to move and hear weird echoes and the like next time I have a smoke lol
Beer doesn't taste any nastier than weed, it's all a matter of opinion. I find most alcohols gross-tasting, whereas I find most weed rather pleasant tasting...
As for being able to argue my points... I can argue them just fine, it's you people that go out of your way to try to find fault with them. That's not my fault. At least I don't resort to insulting people just because I can't think of anything better to say. (I know I may have made a few joking remarks, but they haven't been directing towards anybody in particular)

Your not listening to a thing anyone else says, I'd say that not being able to effectively argu your points. When someone who is supporting you says that you know your in trouble. Maybe its the weed affecting you?

Quote

As for being allowed for medical reasons, if it helps medically, there should be no question. Thus that point didn't even need to be said, it should just be a given.

Its a balance, they used to use cocaine for toothaches. I just hope doctors are smart enough to prescribe it to the right people.

Quote

As for taxes, why should it be any different from cigarettes?
As for parents getting short term memory and forgetting their children and whatnot is one of the biggest loads I've seen so far. That's not the weed, that's just bad parenting. Regardless of what you're doing, you shouldn't put your kids in such a situation where something like that could happen in the first place.

The parents don't purposefully try to forget their kids they're just 'relaxing after a hard days work'.

Now in addition to the alcoholic parents we'll have the stoned ones to ruin kids lives as well.

Quote

If people don't want to be motivated, that's up to their own willpower. There are people who aren't motivated that don't even smoke weed and there are people who are still very motivated who do smoke weed so this doesn't really work.

Don't make exceptions the rule. Your attempts to rationalize use are making you forget the large portion of people it applies to.

Quote

Not to mention all that other bs after that.
Horrific violence to score? Don't make me laugh.

Hallucinations and paranoia? A bad trip? Wtf are you getting this garbage? The only time you'll get a bad trip is on a more powerful hallucinogen like Psilocin.
As for relaxation, indeed there are alternatives, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to use it to relax if you want to.

Maybe a way that doesn't kill brain cells or make you a space case?

Quote

As for no clear benefit for legalizing it, it shouldn't have to benefit people to exist. That's like saying swamplands don't benefit people so we should just get rid of them and ruin all the native creatures' ecosystems just to build a mall so that it can benefit us.

Umm, I believe that was a self answering question but... swamplands do benefit us by sustaining our environment. I don't see the 'native creatures' we will destroy by keeping weed illegal.

Quote

You say you haven't seen any solid arguments as to why it should be legalized, I'm saying I haven't seen any solid arguments as to why it should be illegal in the first place. Just saying that "I like it" or "you don't like it" is insufficient.
Saying that "it was made illegal before so even though there's no good reason why it should still be illegal doesn't mean we should legalize it" is like putting diapers on a kid when they're younger because you feel there's a need for it at the time but then decide that it may be useful for them when they're older and there's no longer a need for it so you make them keep it on anyway for their own good.

Your trying to change a preexisting state, it is your prerogative to provide something to move it.

sh250080, on 28 Sep, 2009 - 07:31 PM, said:

modi123_1, on 28 Sep, 2009 - 06:28 PM, said:

sh250080, on 28 Sep, 2009 - 07:03 PM, said:

On the topic of violence, any of yall have the reports of burglaries, muggings, homicides committed by Marijuana addicts users vs Meth, Coke, Herion addicts and just plain ol'e scumbags? Id like to see those to make sense with this argument of violence and marijuana.

Thank you google? http://www.nebraskap...naviolence.html

That article talks about Inner-City youth. The Inner-City organization you see are these not for low income families who see violence, drug use, domestic abuse etc everyday? That shits a regualr walk in the park for them. So why ask those that are already at-risk about how they feel when they environmental factors are playing a major role too? Lets ask the teenagers in middle to high income families about this.

Only the first study is Inner-City youth, I believe your response is more than you actually read.

Bort, on 29 Sep, 2009 - 12:24 AM, said:

Quote

Faith... you know if God really exists, I have to say. He's a bitch.

"I just created man kind, what now? I know lets fuck around with them. I'll make everyone believe in me without evidence and make them worship me. If they don't, I'll banish them forever to the worst possible place. Genuis, to top it off I'll send some very questionable, seemingly crazy guy down there to tell them." Takes another hit of his bong "I'm amazing"

There you go. If you ever needed any reason why it should be legal....God smoked it

And look where the world is today... about to be nuked by Iran >.>

This post has been edited by syfran: 29 September 2009 - 01:06 PM

[ForcedSterilizationsForAll]

Jaakuuta, on 29 Sep, 2009 - 12:03 PM, said:

Regardless of what you think of my arguments and whether they are valid or not, you still seem to be missing the biggest point of all if you're not hurting anybody, why does it matter what you do?

But you see, it does hurt others. It hurts family and friends that don't want to see their loved one go down the dark and dangerous road. It negatively effects people when they go out in public. They can stumble and fall and hurt themselves, get beyond a wheel and cause an accident. These are the same reasons why public intoxication and driving under the influence are illegal.

It can damage DNA that can cause an increase in the risk of cancer (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090615095940.htm). Not to mention the negative effects if a pregnant woman smokes it.

Quote

As for a gateway drug, that's a bunch of bull that people say as propaganda.

Show me your proof that this is not a true statement. Show me how many people do harder drugs that did not start with marijuana. I'm not saying that everyone that smokes is going to move on to something harder, but show me where those that were on something harder did not begin with marijuana.

Quote

One's rights should not be a matter of what you can't do but what you can do. Saying that the fact that it shouldn't have been made illegal in the first place is an invalid argument is wrong.

I should have the right to not have to deal with people that are high when I am out in public. I should have the right to not have to smell the stench of pot or cigarette smoke. I can turn your argument that rights should be a matter of what you can do against about anything. And yes, your argument is still invalid when you say it shouldn't have been made illegal in the first place. Why shouldn't have been made illegal? Just because you enjoy smoking it? Why do you think it was made illegal in the first place? How come nearly every country in the world has a law making smoking pot illegal? If you think your argument that it shouldn't have been illegal in the first place is valid, then my saying that it should be illegal is valid.

Quote

As for the comparison with somebody saying they're gay, I merely mean that it's just another one of those insignificant things that parents like to bitch about because they're old-fashioned.

Parents today are not bitching about it because they're old fashioned. This is a stupid argument and one that shows your lack of understanding of reality. They complain because they know of the detrimental effects. They know that it is an exception and not the rule to make something out of life you can't be a pot head. You'll understand this more once you've lived your life a little more. When I went to school I hung out with the pot heads, I'm really the only one that has made something of myself. I'm sure I'm not alone in this aspect as all pot heads ever want to do is get high.

Quote

Carcinogen? yeah right... not nearly as much as cigarettes...

Just because there are less than cigarettes does not mean it should be made legal.

Quote

Hallucinogen? yeah, I'll tell you when I see things start to move and hear weird echoes and the like next time I have a smoke lol

Ever hear of lacing? Ever hear that smoking too much can cause temporary psychosis? I guess not since you're basing everything on your experience and think everyone experiences it the exact same as you.

Quote

Beer doesn't taste any nastier than weed, it's all a matter of opinion. I find most alcohols gross-tasting, whereas I find most weed rather pleasant tasting...

And should taste determine legality?

Quote

As for being able to argue my points... I can argue them just fine, it's you people that go out of your way to try to find fault with them. That's not my fault.

This is exactly what arguing is. I'm telling you what is wrong with your argument and why it is invalid. You act like people are wrong to disagree with you and tell you why your points are wrong. You obviously can't argue your points because you keep repeating the same thing once you are told how that point is incorrect.

Quote

At least I don't resort to insulting people just because I can't think of anything better to say. (I know I may have made a few joking remarks, but they haven't been directing towards anybody in particular)

I can insult you and run circles around your arguments. I generally try to avoid the name calling and pettiness, but I'm making an exception in your case.

Quote

As for being allowed for medical reasons, if it helps medically, there should be no question. Thus that point didn't even need to be said, it should just be a given.

The reason medical marijuana isn't legal is because of all the issues that would arise from this with those that didn't genuinely need it. You'd go in with a broken leg (self inflicted) or faking symptoms so you could acquire it "legally" or the people that would resell what they received.

Quote

As for taxes, why should it be any different from cigarettes?
As for parents getting short term memory and forgetting their children and whatnot is one of the biggest loads I've seen so far. That's not the weed, that's just bad parenting. Regardless of what you're doing, you shouldn't put your kids in such a situation where something like that could happen in the first place.

The weed is causing a decrease in short term memory which you are deeming as bad parenting. A bad parent lets their child (person under 18) smoke weed. A bad parent doesn't look out for the best interest in their child. You say "just don't put the child in a situation where something could happen" just isn't feasible. If you had kids you would understand. You can put the child down for a nap and go smoke a bowl to the point where you're completely baked and something could happen. Saying it's bad parenting and not the weed does not help your case any.

Quote

If people don't want to be motivated, that's up to their own willpower. There are people who aren't motivated that don't even smoke weed and there are people who are still very motivated who do smoke weed so this doesn't really work.

It also doesn't work on why it should be legal. If it were legal there would be more people that would sit around the house all the time getting baked.

Quote

Not to mention all that other bs after that.
Horrific violence to score? Don't make me laugh.
Hallucinations and paranoia? A bad trip? Wtf are you getting this garbage? The only time you'll get a bad trip is on a more powerful hallucinogen like Psilocin.

I've known people that became paranoid from smoking pot. Just because you haven't experienced it doesn't mean no one does. Seriously, quit basing how the world works off your very limited view point. People do experience bad trips from pot.

Quote

As for relaxation, indeed there are alternatives, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to use it to relax if you want to.

Yes there are alternatives, none of which are illegal. None of which are detrimental to your health and well-being, none of which are detrimental to the health and well-being of others. How does your argument here have any relevance to why it should be legal? You're saying "it should be legal because you should be able to use it to relax."

Quote

As for no clear benefit for legalizing it, it shouldn't have to benefit people to exist.

So you think to change something from being illegal to legal it doesn't need a benefit? If there IS NO benefit, where is the incentive to change? If there is NO benefit to legalizing it, then shouldn't it remain illegal?

Quote

That's like saying swamplands don't benefit people so we should just get rid of them and ruin all the native creatures' ecosystems just to build a mall so that it can benefit us.

That's not at all what is being said. The swampland does have a benefit to the ecosystem, does legalizing pot have a benefit?

Quote

You say you haven't seen any solid arguments as to why it should be legalized, I'm saying I haven't seen any solid arguments as to why it should be illegal in the first place. Just saying that "I like it" or "you don't like it" is insufficient.

The reason you haven't seen any is because you can't see through the dope haze. Several reasons why it should remain illegal have been listed including the detrimental health effects. Just because you haven't experienced any does not mean they don't exist so should be ignored and are invalid.

Quote

Saying that "it was made illegal before so even though there's no good reason why it should still be illegal doesn't mean we should legalize it" is like putting diapers on a kid when they're younger because you feel there's a need for it at the time but then decide that it may be useful for them when they're older and there's no longer a need for it so you make them keep it on anyway for their own good.

That is not at all what it is like. There was a need for diapers when the child was a baby. As the child gets older and is able to properly use the waste facilities there is no need for diapers. Where is the need for pot? As it is already illegal, we don't need to argue why it should remain illegal. You need to prove to us why it should be made legal. If you fail at that (which you're failing in spades) you'll be unable to convince anyone else why it should be legal so it never will be.

And I still say you are the poster child of why pot should remain illegal since you are failing miserably at trying to argue why it should be legal.

[Jaakuuta]

Quote

Regardless of what you think of my arguments and whether they are valid or not, you still seem to be missing the biggest point of all if you're not hurting anybody, why does it matter what you do?

From the link I quoted below,

Quote

# A Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services report showed that marijuana-using teens themselves said they were more prone than non-users to behaviors such as destruction of property and physical attacks on other teens.
# The same self-report study showed that young people who use marijuana are four times more likely to engage in violence and three times more likely than non-users to consider suicide (violence against themselves).

Quote

Did you even look at that page?

May be an interesting thing to read later. In my experience I've never known anybody who has ever been violent because of weed. Cigarettes, yes, alcohol, yes, but never weed. If anything, weed is what I've been taking for my depression so I don't have thoughts of suicide. It's worked wonders, I used to have an attitude kind of somewhere between an emo and a goth, but then once I started smoking weed I became more "normal" I certainly have never wanted to hurt anybody or myself after having smoked it, so I don't know what they're talking about there...

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In addition it degrades society, which inherently hurts everyone.

That's merely an opinion. I don't think it degrades society any more than alcohol or gambling or half the other vices out there. It's not like we have a perfect society to begin with anyway.

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As for a gateway drug, that's a bunch of bull that people say as propaganda.

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It certainly doesn't help, and I have a feeling its going to be the 'legal gateway' drug. After weed they will start trying to legalize others.

Not all of them are bad, it really just depends on where or how they are used. Some people view hallucinogens as recreational, some people view them as religious.

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One's rights should not be a matter of what you can't do but what you can do. Saying that the fact that it shouldn't have been made illegal in the first place is an invalid argument is wrong.
As for the comparison with somebody saying they're gay, I merely mean that it's just another one of those insignificant things that parents like to bitch about because they're old-fashioned.

Carcinogen? yeah right... not nearly as much as cigarettes...

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And cigarettes should be illegal. I'm sure if they could make alcohol and cigarettes illegal, they would. but they can't. If you haven't been reading my posts they're not going to make the same mistake with weed.

I agree that cigarettes should be illegal. I think if they legalized weed and illegalized cigarettes and alcohol the smokers will still have their smoke fix, alcoholics will still have their buzz, and it won't be as bad for them as either cigarettes or alcohol. I look at it as more of a replacement for cigarettes and alcohol, rather than something to accompany them. More of a step up than a step out.

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Hallucinogen? yeah, I'll tell you when I see things start to move and hear weird echoes and the like next time I have a smoke lol
Beer doesn't taste any nastier than weed, it's all a matter of opinion. I find most alcohols gross-tasting, whereas I find most weed rather pleasant tasting...
As for being able to argue my points... I can argue them just fine, it's you people that go out of your way to try to find fault with them. That's not my fault. At least I don't resort to insulting people just because I can't think of anything better to say. (I know I may have made a few joking remarks, but they haven't been directing towards anybody in particular)

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You're not listening to a thing anyone else says, I'd say that not being able to effectively argu your points. When someone who is supporting you says that you know your in trouble. Maybe its the weed affecting you?

You just had to throw that extra jab in there lol...
I am indeed listening to what others are saying, I just don't feel that others are listening to what I'm saying. There have been some good points made on both sides, but nothing I've seen that has made me think that weed is really such a bad thing. Arguments like "it degrades society" and "it breaks up families" just seem like excuses for people who may have personally had bad experiences with it. This doesn't necessarily mean that it's the case for all people. I do appreciate your support thought btw

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As for being allowed for medical reasons, if it helps medically, there should be no question. Thus that point didn't even need to be said, it should just be a given.

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Its a balance, they used to use cocaine for toothaches. I just hope doctors are smart enough to prescribe it to the right people.

Indeed, I think this should be the case in general. Like other controlled things there should be a "responsibility factor". Like with alcohol or gambling, people should have to be of a certain age and be able to use it responsibly. Like they "don't drink and derive", they could have "no space cruising".

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As for taxes, why should it be any different from cigarettes?
As for parents getting short term memory and forgetting their children and whatnot is one of the biggest loads I've seen so far. That's not the weed, that's just bad parenting. Regardless of what you're doing, you shouldn't put your kids in such a situation where something like that could happen in the first place.

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The parents don't purposefully try to forget their kids they're just 'relaxing after a hard days work'.

Again I think this comes down to the responsibility factor. Parents are responsible for how they raise their kids. It should not be weed's fault because some parents want to be negligent. It doesn't matter what they do. If they know it will cause them to act in such a way as to endanger their children's life, they just shouldn't do it. Regardless of what it is. This shouldn't be a reason to penalize weed itself.

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Now in addition to the alcoholic parents we'll have the stoned ones to ruin kids lives as well.

It doesn't take a doobie or a drink for a parent to ruin a kid's life.

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If people don't want to be motivated, that's up to their own willpower. There are people who aren't motivated that don't even smoke weed and there are people who are still very motivated who do smoke weed so this doesn't really work.

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Don't make exceptions the rule. Your attempts to rationalize use are making you forget the large portion of people it applies to.

Well think about it... Regardless of what they're doing, if they're not motivated enough to work, then they'll end up out in the streets. Even if it supposedly does kill brain cells, even if it does make people unmotivated, in the end it's up to the person to realize what they need to do and to do it. I figure if it does make you unmotivated and you still do something anyway, that's even more of an accomplishment

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Not to mention all that other bs after that.
Horrific violence to score? Don't make me laugh.

Hallucinations and paranoia? A bad trip? Wtf are you getting this garbage? The only time you'll get a bad trip is on a more powerful hallucinogen like Psilocin.
As for relaxation, indeed there are alternatives, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to use it to relax if you want to.

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Maybe a way that doesn't kill brain cells or make you a space case?

Maybe for some people relaxing is being a space case... In either case, are you trying to protect people from themselves here? Shouldn't people get to decide what they do to their own bodies? I mean tattoos are legal aren't they?

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As for no clear benefit for legalizing it, it shouldn't have to benefit people to exist. That's like saying swamplands don't benefit people so we should just get rid of them and ruin all the native creatures' ecosystems just to build a mall so that it can benefit us.

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Umm, I believe that was a self answering question but... swamplands do benefit us by sustaining our environment. I don't see the 'native creatures' we will destroy by keeping weed illegal.

That was a bit of an exaggerated example. Perhaps something more like the deforestation of the rainforests because it would be a benefit to us.

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You say you haven't seen any solid arguments as to why it should be legalized, I'm saying I haven't seen any solid arguments as to why it should be illegal in the first place. Just saying that "I like it" or "you don't like it" is insufficient.
Saying that "it was made illegal before so even though there's no good reason why it should still be illegal doesn't mean we should legalize it" is like putting diapers on a kid when they're younger because you feel there's a need for it at the time but then decide that it may be useful for them when they're older and there's no longer a need for it so you make them keep it on anyway for their own good.

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You're trying to change a preexisting state, it is your prerogative to provide something to move it.

It had only been "preexisting" for a relatively short period of time and mostly for selfish political reasons. In either case, why should this matter anyway? We're not talking physics here. What if for whatever reasons murder became legal? If you could argue that it should never have been made legal in the first place, wouldn't you want to be able to overturn it?

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On the topic of violence, any of yall have the reports of burglaries, muggings, homicides committed by Marijuana addicts users vs Meth, Coke, Herion addicts and just plain ol'e scumbags? Id like to see those to make sense with this argument of violence and marijuana.

Thank you google? http://www.nebraskap...naviolence.html

That article talks about Inner-City youth. The Inner-City organization you see are these not for low income families who see violence, drug use, domestic abuse etc everyday? That shits a regualr walk in the park for them. So why ask those that are already at-risk about how they feel when they environmental factors are playing a major role too? Lets ask the teenagers in middle to high income families about this.

Only the first study is Inner-City youth, I believe your response is more than you actually read.

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Faith... you know if God really exists, I have to say. He's a bitch.

"I just created man kind, what now? I know lets fuck around with them. I'll make everyone believe in me without evidence and make them worship me. If they don't, I'll banish them forever to the worst possible place. Genuis, to top it off I'll send some very questionable, seemingly crazy guy down there to tell them." Takes another hit of his bong "I'm amazing"

There you go. If you ever needed any reason why it should be legal....God smoked it

And look where the world is today... about to be nuked by Iran >.>

lol