[ForcedSterilizationsForAll]

Jaakuuta, on 29 Sep, 2009 - 02:01 PM, said:

Like with alcohol or gambling, people should have to be of a certain age and be able to use it responsibly. Like they "don't drink and derive"

But I like to drink while doing math!

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Again I think this comes down to the responsibility factor. Parents are responsible for how they raise their kids. It should not be weed's fault because some parents want to be negligent. It doesn't matter what they do. If they know it will cause them to act in such a way as to endanger their children's life, they just shouldn't do it. Regardless of what it is. This shouldn't be a reason to penalize weed itself.

It's irresponsible to tell a child it's okay to smoke weed.

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That was a bit of an exaggerated example. Perhaps something more like the deforestation of the rainforests because it would be a benefit to us.

Deforestation also hurts us as it has a negative impact on the ecosystem. Trying to compare legalizing weed to deforestation is again, a poor comparison.

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It had only been "preexisting" for a relatively short period of time and mostly for selfish political reasons. In either case, why should this matter anyway? We're not talking physics here. What if for whatever reasons murder became legal? If you could argue that it should never have been made legal in the first place, wouldn't you want to be able to overturn it?

What do you mean it's only been "preexisting" for a relatively short period of time? It's been around for quite a while and it's been illegal for quite a while. Where are you getting that it's illegal for selfish political reasons? Seriously, where are your sources on this? Did you pull them out your ass? It matters because you want to change the law. In order to change the law you have to show why it should be changed. Right now you're failing that. You say you want change but you don't need to show why you want change just that it should be changed. That's not how it works.

Murder would never become legal because it would destroy society. But, let's say somehow someone were to get it so it were legal. It would easily be argued as to why it should be illegal (again) such as: If everyone did it it would lead to the downfall of society as everyone would be dead. You are incapable of doing that with the argument to legalize weed. Furthermore, you're complaining people aren't listening to you because they're telling you why you are wrong and then state that it shouldn't matter that you are wrong but it should still be legal.

[syfran]

I'll respond in full later if FSFA doesn't beat me to it. But since you a lot of your argument seems to revolve around stuff that is already legal. No one gives a shit what is already legal ffs. The world is a shitty place but at least we can try and keep it from getting worse. Is getting your personal addiction worth making the world worse? Though I'm sure your going to rationalize that with that it will make everyone happier and we can all hold hands and dance around singing right? It feels like I'm arguing with a religious fanatic, an argument you can never win.

Edit: guess he already has

This post has been edited by syfran: 29 September 2009 - 02:34 PM

[Jaakuuta]

syfran, on 29 Sep, 2009 - 01:33 PM, said:

I'll respond in full later if FSFA doesn't beat me to it. But since you a lot of your argument seems to revolve around stuff that is already legal. No one gives a shit what is already legal ffs. The world is a shitty place but at least we can try and keep it from getting worse. Is getting your personal addiction worth making the world worse? Though I'm sure your going to rationalize that with that it will make everyone happier and we can all hold hands and dance around singing right? It feels like I'm arguing with a religious fanatic, an argument you can never win.

Edit: guess he already has

Entheogens are my religion, so in a way, yes.
I have read a few articles about weed having been made illegal because some senator didn't like it because it was bad for his campaign and he wanted to play the race card against mexicans. I don't remember exactly, I'm not in the mood to look it up right now, but that's what I was alluding to before. I know things like deforestation and the like don't have anything to do with it, that's just what it feels like to me. Personally I couldn't care less about whatever detrimental health defects and whatever detriment to society people think it would bring. I just don't think it's fair that people are allowed to smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol but people want to waste so much money trying to stop people because they want to smoke some green once in a while. Of course I think people should do it responsibly, I can't vouch for what other people do with it, I just know I've never tried to harm anybody by doing it so I don't think I should have to worry about doing something that by my doing will have absolutely no effect on anybody but myself. I don't go walking around in public places with it and blow it in people's faces and the like. As for the paranoia, I bet a lot of it is simply because people are paranoid about getting caught, and for good reason. Coppers really do have bigger things to be worried about than a few people who want to smoke a little green once in a while. If I really was serious about debating it though, I could probably come up with some better arguments, but since I'm not, I'm too lazy to look things up and whatnot. The laziness has nothing to do with the weed though, I've always been lazy. Anyway, I figure most drugs should be legal but just in a regulated capacity. That way the government would have more control over its use and would be focusing more on controlling the people that do it rather than trying to stop the people that produce it and the like. It's like the gun laws. Even though I despise guns and everything they stand for, I'm against banning them. Why? because if they were banned only the criminals would get ahold of them... The people following regulations and the like would be helpless to the people who don't care and get them on the black market anyway.

[syfran]

Nice excuse, I'm not going to argue with anyone who isn't serious about defending their point.

[ForcedSterilizationsForAll]

Jaakuuta, on 29 Sep, 2009 - 03:07 PM, said:

syfran, on 29 Sep, 2009 - 01:33 PM, said:

I'll respond in full later if FSFA doesn't beat me to it. But since you a lot of your argument seems to revolve around stuff that is already legal. No one gives a shit what is already legal ffs. The world is a shitty place but at least we can try and keep it from getting worse. Is getting your personal addiction worth making the world worse? Though I'm sure your going to rationalize that with that it will make everyone happier and we can all hold hands and dance around singing right? It feels like I'm arguing with a religious fanatic, an argument you can never win.

Edit: guess he already has

Entheogens are my religion, so in a way, yes.
I have read a few articles about weed having been made illegal because some senator didn't like it because it was bad for his campaign and he wanted to play the race card against mexicans. I don't remember exactly, I'm not in the mood to look it up right now, but that's what I was alluding to before. I know things like deforestation and the like don't have anything to do with it, that's just what it feels like to me. Personally I couldn't care less about whatever detrimental health defects and whatever detriment to society people think it would bring. I just don't think it's fair that people are allowed to smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol but people want to waste so much money trying to stop people because they want to smoke some green once in a while. Of course I think people should do it responsibly, I can't vouch for what other people do with it, I just know I've never tried to harm anybody by doing it so I don't think I should have to worry about doing something that by my doing will have absolutely no effect on anybody but myself. I don't go walking around in public places with it and blow it in people's faces and the like. As for the paranoia, I bet a lot of it is simply because people are paranoid about getting caught, and for good reason. Coppers really do have bigger things to be worried about than a few people who want to smoke a little green once in a while. If I really was serious about debating it though, I could probably come up with some better arguments, but since I'm not, I'm too lazy to look things up and whatnot. The laziness has nothing to do with the weed though, I've always been lazy. Anyway, I figure most drugs should be legal but just in a regulated capacity. That way the government would have more control over its use and would be focusing more on controlling the people that do it rather than trying to stop the people that produce it and the like. It's like the gun laws. Even though I despise guns and everything they stand for, I'm against banning them. Why? because if they were banned only the criminals would get ahold of them... The people following regulations and the like would be helpless to the people who don't care and get them on the black market anyway.

So you're saying it should be legal because you are responsible when you use it? You also say you aren't serious about arguing whether it should be legal or not but are complaining about people shredding your feeble arguments...

You do realize that only criminals smoke pot, which is the same as your gun argument. Why bother posting if you aren't serious about defending your side? Do you really give up so easily when things are difficult?

[Sethro117]

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http://www.nebraskap...naviolence.html[/url]

That article talks about Inner-City youth. The Inner-City organization you see are these not for low income families who see violence, drug use, domestic abuse etc everyday? That shits a regualr walk in the park for them. So why ask those that are already at-risk about how they feel when they environmental factors are playing a major role too? Lets ask the teenagers in middle to high income families about this.

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Only the first study is Inner-City youth, I believe your response is more than you actually read.

Ok Syfran, I read the whole report again. Let me give you the key points here:

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In a study of more than 1,000 inner-city youth, those who admitted monthly or more use of marijuana in their early adolescent years reported greater frequency of using weapons and perpetrating violence as well as a higher vulnerability to be victims of violence.

Ok So theres 1000 Inner-City youth.

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The same self-report study showed that young people who use marijuana are four times more likely to engage in violence and three times more likely than non-users to consider suicide (violence against themselves).

Once again, they same study that interviewed the inner-city youth.

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A July 1990 report of the National Institute of Justice (NIJ), Searching for Answers—Research and Evaluation on Drugs and Crime holds that while there is no drug which itself causes someone to commit a crime, drug use is held to be one of several major causes of criminal behavior.

Ok it says there is "no drug use which itself causes someone to commit a crim but drug use is a major reason" Meaning thats taking into account all the drugs.

Quote

Levels of marijuana use among persons involved in the criminal justice system are high; often one-third or more of the population has used marijuana within days of an arrest (National Institute of Justice, 1998).

Ok they tested positive for Marijuana which stays in your system for 30+ days depending on how much you use it. That doesnt mean that they were under the influence or the marijuana made them decide to do it.

Once again the same point stands this study was with Inner-City youth. Why are making the study with people who already see this stuff everyday? Its like putting a cake in front of a fat kid, he knows that cake is good. He eats cake all the time, his parents eat cake all the time so lets make a study asking a fat kid if we gave him a cake if he would say no to it. Sound good? Indeed sir.

This post has been edited by sh250080: 29 September 2009 - 04:17 PM

[Jaakuuta]

ForcedSterilizationsForAll, on 29 Sep, 2009 - 02:38 PM, said:

Jaakuuta, on 29 Sep, 2009 - 03:07 PM, said:

syfran, on 29 Sep, 2009 - 01:33 PM, said:

I'll respond in full later if FSFA doesn't beat me to it. But since you a lot of your argument seems to revolve around stuff that is already legal. No one gives a shit what is already legal ffs. The world is a shitty place but at least we can try and keep it from getting worse. Is getting your personal addiction worth making the world worse? Though I'm sure your going to rationalize that with that it will make everyone happier and we can all hold hands and dance around singing right? It feels like I'm arguing with a religious fanatic, an argument you can never win.

Edit: guess he already has

Entheogens are my religion, so in a way, yes.
I have read a few articles about weed having been made illegal because some senator didn't like it because it was bad for his campaign and he wanted to play the race card against mexicans. I don't remember exactly, I'm not in the mood to look it up right now, but that's what I was alluding to before. I know things like deforestation and the like don't have anything to do with it, that's just what it feels like to me. Personally I couldn't care less about whatever detrimental health defects and whatever detriment to society people think it would bring. I just don't think it's fair that people are allowed to smoke cigarettes and drink alcohol but people want to waste so much money trying to stop people because they want to smoke some green once in a while. Of course I think people should do it responsibly, I can't vouch for what other people do with it, I just know I've never tried to harm anybody by doing it so I don't think I should have to worry about doing something that by my doing will have absolutely no effect on anybody but myself. I don't go walking around in public places with it and blow it in people's faces and the like. As for the paranoia, I bet a lot of it is simply because people are paranoid about getting caught, and for good reason. Coppers really do have bigger things to be worried about than a few people who want to smoke a little green once in a while. If I really was serious about debating it though, I could probably come up with some better arguments, but since I'm not, I'm too lazy to look things up and whatnot. The laziness has nothing to do with the weed though, I've always been lazy. Anyway, I figure most drugs should be legal but just in a regulated capacity. That way the government would have more control over its use and would be focusing more on controlling the people that do it rather than trying to stop the people that produce it and the like. It's like the gun laws. Even though I despise guns and everything they stand for, I'm against banning them. Why? because if they were banned only the criminals would get ahold of them... The people following regulations and the like would be helpless to the people who don't care and get them on the black market anyway.

So you're saying it should be legal because you are responsible when you use it? You also say you aren't serious about arguing whether it should be legal or not but are complaining about people shredding your feeble arguments...

You do realize that only criminals smoke pot, which is the same as your gun argument. Why bother posting if you aren't serious about defending your side? Do you really give up so easily when things are difficult?

If things like weed and gambling and the like were regulated by the government, then there would be a lot less shit for the government to have to deal with as far as dealers and all that. If people were more responsible with how they used it, perhaps there wouldn't be as much stigma attached to its use. I really don't care if you think my arguments are feeble or not. Well, if it's illegal then somebody who does it is obviously a criminal... lol Of course, that's not to say that all established laws are right haha...
I'm not necessarily giving up, I'm just too busy with other things to do anything besides just saying whatever's on the "tip of my fingers" at the moment... that's obviously not good enough so I'm not too worried about it. I'm working on my MIPS homework right now, I'll probably look into it more seriously when I have more time to do research and whatnot...
Anyway, have fun, I've got to get back to studying.

[modi123_1]

Jaakuuta, on 29 Sep, 2009 - 04:07 PM, said:

Entheogens are my religion, so in a way, yes.

Really? Doubt it.

Jaakuuta, on 29 Sep, 2009 - 04:07 PM, said:

If I really was serious about debating it though, I could probably come up with some better arguments, but since I'm not, I'm too lazy to look things up and whatnot.

The flow goes cold conceded. The entire case is dropped. At best there is a risk of some defense but no offense. Greenhill wins the round!

[syfran]

sh250080, on 29 Sep, 2009 - 03:15 PM, said:

Quote

Quote

http://www.nebraskap...naviolence.html[/url]

That article talks about Inner-City youth. The Inner-City organization you see are these not for low income families who see violence, drug use, domestic abuse etc everyday? That shits a regualr walk in the park for them. So why ask those that are already at-risk about how they feel when they environmental factors are playing a major role too? Lets ask the teenagers in middle to high income families about this.

Quote

Only the first study is Inner-City youth, I believe your response is more than you actually read.

Ok Syfran, I read the whole report again. Let me give you the key points here:

Quote

In a study of more than 1,000 inner-city youth, those who admitted monthly or more use of marijuana in their early adolescent years reported greater frequency of using weapons and perpetrating violence as well as a higher vulnerability to be victims of violence.

Ok So theres 1000 Inner-City youth.

Quote

The same self-report study showed that young people who use marijuana are four times more likely to engage in violence and three times more likely than non-users to consider suicide (violence against themselves).

Once again, they same study that interviewed the inner-city youth.

Quote

A July 1990 report of the National Institute of Justice (NIJ), Searching for Answers—Research and Evaluation on Drugs and Crime holds that while there is no drug which itself causes someone to commit a crime, drug use is held to be one of several major causes of criminal behavior.

Ok it says there is "no drug use which itself causes someone to commit a crim but drug use is a major reason" Meaning thats taking into account all the drugs.

Quote

Levels of marijuana use among persons involved in the criminal justice system are high; often one-third or more of the population has used marijuana within days of an arrest (National Institute of Justice, 1998).

Ok they tested positive for Marijuana which stays in your system for 30+ days depending on how much you use it. That doesnt mean that they were under the influence or the marijuana made them decide to do it.

Once again the same point stands this study was with Inner-City youth. Why are making the study with people who already see this stuff everyday? Its like putting a cake in front of a fat kid, he knows that cake is good. He eats cake all the time, his parents eat cake all the time so lets make a study asking a fat kid if we gave him a cake if he would say no to it. Sound good? Indeed sir.

Did you really read it? Its referring to multiple studies not just one. Only the first point was about inner-city youth.

This post has been edited by syfran: 29 September 2009 - 06:59 PM

[Sethro117]

I did read the whole thing. But the link provided is the only report still around. If youll click on the others they pages are not found so all we have to go by is the troubled youth the interviewed. Whose to say those reports didnt interview trouble youth as well?

One organization did, why wouldnt the others?

[Bort]

This is a rather interesting read, about legalization in California

[RodgerB]

People drink coffee to alter the brain to improve alertness, people drink alcohol as a social stimulant and enjoyment, people eat chocolate and it has anti-depressant qualities and they enjoy it, if alcohol is legal, and if alcohol and tobacco is more addictive and more harmful to the body than cannabis, why is cannabis illegal? The addictive part is usually because they mix tobacco with it.

The argument is not about whether it is good or not to use it, people should be given the right to choose, whether they abuse it or not is simply their decision and doesn't mean everyone that does use it will.

People are much 'safer' under the influence of cannabis than some that are under the influence of alcohol. I have not known of a high cannabis user to flip out and attack somebody unprovoked... You can't say that for alcohol though.

EDIT: Whoops wrong page. Lol.

This post has been edited by RodgerB: 09 October 2009 - 07:07 PM

[optix212]

In my personal opinion, i do believe that marijuana should be legalized.But to first address the issue of taxation, it wouldn't help a thing.The government does not have enough GOLD in treasury, not paper money. Say you have a $1.00 bill in your pocket, all that $1.00 is, is a promise of $1.00 worth of gold in our nation's treasury.

Also, to address the issue at hand properly, you must first examine how exactly it was illegalized. To do this, we must research a man named Harry Anslinger

To address the issue of not legalizing marijuana to it's fullest extent, we have to consider that the United States has spent literally billions of dollars trying to make marijuana look bad (thus the "Truth" commercials you see all the time). If you spent billions of dollars making something look bad, would you turn around 70 years later and say that it is now all of a sudden good? Plain and simple, no. You wouldn't, because it would make you look ignorant.

Also, to address another point, most people think that legalizing marijuana will clean up the prison systems, which, it will. But that is exactly what the government does NOT want to do. Why? Because for every one person in a state's prison, that specific state gets paid a certain amount per day.

So in conclusion, marijuana will probably not be legalized, not because it is good or bad, but because our leaders do not want to look stupid (that would probably be a big career-basher for a politician) and more importantly because the keeping marijuana illegal brings in states LOADS of cash per year.

So consider this, if marijuana WAS legalized, our standard of living would significantly raise, there would be more people with jobs, new jobs would open (pot farming), it would create a whole new industry, and more importantly, people would be happy.

[ccubed]

optix212, on 10 Oct, 2009 - 10:16 PM, said:

The government does not have enough GOLD in treasury, not paper money. Say you have a $1.00 bill in your pocket, all that $1.00 is, is a promise of $1.00 worth of gold in our nation's treasury.

We stopped using the gold standard years ago. The government isn't sitting around with gold for every $1. In fact, that paper bill in your pocket is worthless compared to gold. Go try to get $1 worth of gold for it, bet you can't.

Anyways, we've been using the Fiat money system for awhile. All that says is that your $1 is good for any debt equal to or less than $1. It doesn't promise anything about Gold backing. Especially since the government doesn't have any and that's the reason we're umpteen trillion dollars in debt.

Anyways, my view of marijuana is this: If you drive high, you get a ticket. If you want to sit in your own home or a friends home and smoke yourself stupid on it, Be my guest. What the hell do I care. Which is really what we have to ask ourselves. Should the government care what you do in your own home? (Please DO NOT take this far out. I'm assuming reasonable constraints. Such as you murder someone in your house and you get locked up.)

This post has been edited by ccubed: 11 October 2009 - 12:01 AM

[optix212]

either way, my other points are still valid enough.