[mostyfriedman]

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I don't think people should hide their code from others.

besides the points Core posted, i would also like to add another point which is competition. if i write a program that uses a sophisticated algorithm that i may have spent months or even years developing that does something very efficiently and accurately that makes people's lives much easier and is actually worth buying, then some other person just steps in, views the source code and adds it to their own application just to compete with my product. do you think this is fair?. I believe if you don't support copyrighted material then don't buy it or use it and stick with the open source stuff otherwise be ready to pay up.

[Jaakuuta]

KYA, on 20 Sep, 2009 - 02:33 PM, said:

I'm getting a hippie vibe from you jaakuuta. Didn't you profess to be a constant pot smoker in another thread? Might want to lay off the MJ.

Hippie vibe indeed. I feel that the ideals espoused by the hippies were some of the best ideas we've had to date, and the weed has nothing to do with it.

As for competition, I feel rather than copyrighting a better form of competition would be not to see who could come up with something first and lay sole claim to it, but rather once something's released to see who can come up with the best version of it. I feel that's a truer form of competition, to have people see who can make the best form of the same product.

[KYA]

Unfortunately the world doesn't work that way. We can't all join hands and sing kum by yah. Sorry.

[baavgai]

Jaakuuta, on 20 Sep, 2009 - 04:31 PM, said:

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So, following your train of thought, you want to say that such things like movie scenarios, songs and other stuff like this shouldn't be sold? May I ask you how will the people who work in those areas earn for their living then?

Those things shouldn't be sold. They can make their money doing other things. Creativity is an art and as such should be a hobby and released for people with the passion and good of the people in mind, not just because some corporate big whig wants it to be released for money.

The level naivety here is almost unbelievable. Still, one more go for me.

There is something so obvious here that no one has bothered to point it out. Apparently, it needs to be. Simply, production costs.

A movie is an obvious example. For a movie, even an independent labor of love will run into six figures. Even if everyone involved completely donated their time, the cost of raw materials and equipment is excessive. How many movies do you think will be created through charitable donation? Do you think those made will be any good?

Even something as humble as an independent album will have production costs. Today a digital song can be created and distributed for next to nothing, but there's still a cost. Just a dinky little promotional web site has a cost. The artist can shoulder the cost in the hope they might ultimately recoupe the expense. Again, some material might be produced gratis, but who would care?

[KYA]

baavgai, on 20 Sep, 2009 - 03:59 PM, said:

There is something so obvious here that no one has bothered to point it out. Apparently, it needs to be. Simply, production costs.

I thought it didn't need to be said. Go me.

[Jaakuuta]

I never claimed myself to be a pragmatist. I'm not naive enough to believe that with how people are that it's likely to ever happen. That's why I said they're "beliefs and ideals". Unfortunately people aren't prepared to do things for the common good because all they care about is what's good for themselves which is why the concept of the all-mighty dollar trumps that of peace and charity.

[Amadeus]

Despite claims to the contrary, you do appear to be almost childishly naive. Surely you can see the perils that have beset the many communities/cultures throughout history that have tried to mandate that everything was for everybody - the decline in quality of any affected goods/services was nightmarishly quick.

Say I was prepared to make the move...instead of now selling my work, I make it freely available. All of it. I receive no renumeration for any of it. What shall I feed my family? A good feeling with butter which incidentally I can no longer buy)?

In order to continue feeding my family, i would have to get another job - apparently one that you consider an acceptable chargeable solution so you do not steal my work. I now have no time to program...so my programs are no longer available to be made free. there will be no more for me to give away (or for you to steal). So now instead of everyone having free access to them, nobody anywhere has any access to them. Do you feel this decision has improved the world? Or perhaps worsened it?

You say that books are text anyone can write - except they cannot. It's a skill some of that others do not.

There's nothing wrong with hippie ideals - I have many myself. But all that goes out the window if you are trying to take food from my family. Count on it.

[mostyfriedman]

damn Amadeus, you must REALLY like food, it better be good ole shawerma buster

This post has been edited by mostyfriedman: 20 September 2009 - 04:21 PM

[Jaakuuta]

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Despite claims to the contrary, you do appear to be almost childishly naive. Surely you can see the perils that have beset the many communities/cultures throughout history that have tried to mandate that everything was for everybody - the decline in quality of any affected goods/services was nightmarishly quick.

Hrm... I take offense to that, and as an admin I would think you would have better manners than that...Like I said, I don't claim to be a pragmatist, I don't actually think that my ideals will be realized with the sad state that society is in where there are kids who would kill their parents for taking away a video game from them... (not quite the same issue, but I still think that's pretty messed up)

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Say I was prepared to make the move...instead of now selling my work, I make it freely available. All of it. I receive no renumeration for any of it. What shall I feed my family? A good feeling with butter which incidentally I can no longer buy)?

Like I was saying, any work of art should be a labor of love, and if we were in a system where we would have people that could provide food to others then we wouldn't have to worry about it, but that's another political discussion altogether...

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In order to continue feeding my family, i would have to get another job - apparently one that you consider an acceptable chargeable solution so you do not steal my work. I now have no time to program...so my programs are no longer available to be made free. there will be no more for me to give away (or for you to steal). So now instead of everyone having free access to them, nobody anywhere has any access to them. Do you feel this decision has improved the world? Or perhaps worsened it?

For one thing, it's your own choice if the job that you choose takes up so much of your time that you don't have any free time in which to program...Also, refer to my last response.

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You say that books are text anyone can write - except they cannot. It's a skill some of that others do not.

How good a work of art is is relative. Just because somebody went to school to learn how other people think said works of art should be made doesn't necessarily mean that somebody who just happens to have good ideas that may not be structured quite as well can't make something just as interesting, if not more.
Same with movies and programs and the like, you say that budget is a big issue, well if people really want to make something big and fancy, then they can pay the price to make it such high quality Of course, a movie with almost no budget, made in somebody's backyard with normal clothes and a cheap camera may not have the same resolution quality and everything, but if the story and acting are great it's just as good a movie. I guess it just depends on how picky you are about little things like picture quality and the like.

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There's nothing wrong with hippie ideals - I have many myself. But all that goes out the window if you are trying to take food from my family. Count on it.

Hippie ideals would probably bring more food to your family if implemented properly.

[KYA]

How? By your own summation, the only product worth paying for would be food. The only people with money would be the farmers and trades people, anyone dealing with any sort of intellectual property or service should work for free.

Even if it was implemented "properly" it wouldn't work. Why? Because people should get paid for their good work.

Amadeus brings up food (and this is my opinion) for a valid reason:

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

If you have nothing to eat, you're not going to give two shits about the arts. Everything is relative.

People will not work for free. It is in human nature to want to get something out of an event. Why? Survival instinct.

You brought up labor of love, I agree, your work should be a labor of love, mainly because you will enjoy "working", but you will also be better at it. I'm amused that you think the food producers will simply give their product away to those who are working for free. Seriously, it's worthy.

If a Utopia society could exist on Earth, it would have already been done.

[Amadeus]

Jaakuuta, on 20 Sep, 2009 - 06:30 PM, said:

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Despite claims to the contrary, you do appear to be almost childishly naive. Surely you can see the perils that have beset the many communities/cultures throughout history that have tried to mandate that everything was for everybody - the decline in quality of any affected goods/services was nightmarishly quick.

Hrm... I take offense to that, and as an admin I would think you would have better manners than that...Like I said, I don't claim to be a pragmatist, I don't actually think that my ideals will be realized with the sad state that society is in where there are kids who would kill their parents for taking away a video game from them... (not quite the same issue, but I still think that's pretty messed up)

You may take offense if you wish, but please don't presume that once someone is a mod on this site, they are no longer allowed to participate in conversations. Now that i have, I will of course take no moderation actions, thereby preserving the integrity of the thread itself.

I stand by my comments, however.

[baavgai]

Wait! I finally understand! I've seen this show. It's Star Trek, right? There's no money, no hunger, everyone contributes to society according to their abilities. Everyone takes according to their needs.

Strangely, this is near identical to a science fiction novel published by Karl Marx and Fredrick Engels in 1848.

To my knowledge, neither of those Utopian visions have ever seen fruition in the real world. I'm willing to hope for the best along with you, though.

[Jaakuuta]

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How? By your own summation, the only product worth paying for would be food. The only people with money would be the farmers and trades people, anyone dealing with any sort of intellectual property or service should work for free.

This would be under an ideal system where money doesn't exists, but like I said before, that's a whole different political discussion.

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Even if it was implemented "properly" it wouldn't work. Why? Because people should get paid for their good work.

Amadeus brings up food (and this is my opinion) for a valid reason:

Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs

If you have nothing to eat, you're not going to give two shits about the arts. Everything is relative.

People will not work for free. It is in human nature to want to get something out of an event. Why? Survival instinct.

You brought up labor of love, I agree, your work should be a labor of love, mainly because you will enjoy "working", but you will also be better at it. I'm amused that you think the food producers will simply give their product away to those who are working for free. Seriously, it's worthy.

Maybe if the people who produce the food were given services from the other people who don't make food...

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If a Utopia society could exist on Earth, it would have already been done.

How many times have I said now that I don't seriously think this will happen and that it's merely speculation and unless you're actually in a focus group of people who can actually have an impact on the politics of the world, then that's all any type of discussion about such a thing would be in which case you shouldn't take it so seriously.

Anyway, we've already long gone astray from the main topic. Point being that even though it's not likely to happen that world politics will change any time soon, that's not going to change my views on it. I don't think people should just go around stealing things, but I think people should be more lenient about things like music and books and old software that nobody even sells anymore. I know it's illegal at this point, but not all laws are good laws, like some of the other discussions on here

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You may take offense if you wish, but please don't presume that once someone is a mod on this site, they are no longer allowed to participate in conversations. Now that i have, I will of course take no moderation actions, thereby preserving the integrity of the thread itself.

I'm not saying you're not allowed to participate in conversations, I'm just saying you could be more polite. I may not agree with your beliefs, but that doesn't mean I have said anything rude to you personally and I would think you could extend to me the same courtesy

This post has been edited by Jaakuuta: 20 September 2009 - 05:13 PM

[KYA]

Jaakuuta, on 20 Sep, 2009 - 05:10 PM, said:

Maybe if the people who produce the food were given services from the other people who don't make food...

That's how it works now!

[xclite]

sbell1099, on 20 Sep, 2009 - 05:48 PM, said:

I personally think,

It is ok to pirate software for personally non profit use and so long as you don't make a profit.

I Arn't going to say about another type of media.

It's also ok to steal a computer for non profit use, as long as you don't make a profit. Or textbooks. See what I did thar?