[baavgai]

KYA, on 25 May, 2009 - 08:12 PM, said:

Except good works are worthless by themselves.

Huh? I think I'm missing the context of this.

Good works have intrinsic value. If a Christian is doing them strictly to earn cred in Heaven, it may not count on the St.Peter score card, but it's still useful to the community. Then again, most good done has an underlying selfish motivation. As long at the end product is positive, it's hard to complain.

[searockruz]

Quote

then why was jesus baptized then in the jordan river or something if he was born without sin???

once you say Jesus was innocent and the very next moment you doubt about his innocence.

its a ritual.
now don't ask why he took birth.He could have come down flying
he came on earth as a human, and even was tempted by the satan

[mostyfriedman]

searockruz, on 26 May, 2009 - 08:33 AM, said:

@mostyfriedman

did you read the article ?

no, and am not gonna read it..i've already talked to a lot of christians and done a lot of reading and i have made up my mind about the concept of god and salvation in christianity.

searockruz, on 26 May, 2009 - 09:06 AM, said:

Quote

then why was jesus baptized then in the jordan river or something if he was born without sin???

once you say Jesus was innocent and the very next moment you doubt about his innocence.

its a ritual.
now don't ask why he took birth.He could have come down flying
he came on earth as a human, and even was tempted by the satan

where did i say that jesus was innocent??? i didnt say anything about the innocence of jesus

[Gorian]

@OliveOyl lol. I of course agree with the commented...

mostyfriedman, on 26 May, 2009 - 04:43 AM, said:

Quote

god says you human will never understand my plans

its just like a child saying to her mom can i play with fire, and then starts crying after she stops him from playing, do you think the child is right if he says my mom is really bad

that is a very bad example, if god tells me dont do drugs for example then this example will hold, coz god knows that drugs are bad for me even if i'm not convinced. so it makes sense that god forbids drugs for humans..what doesnt make sense is killing someone else to pay for the sins of humans..i mean god is supposed to be all merciful, omnipresent and omnipotent etc etc..if your god has to kill someone to be able to forgive then he is not a true god and he is a deficient god because he is not able to forgive unless someone else is crucified

Jesus' Sacrifice was enough because he was pure, perfect, and holy. Note that it was not substitution as much as breaking the power sin had over us. As for "Why does God not help us?"

God is Alive, and he is moving. But there are consequences to your sin. God, being perfect, cannot abide by sin. An analogy:

Imagine a friend in the middle of a raging fire so hot that it is impossible to make it to the friend without dying. Rather, first you would extinguish the fire, and then save them. In the same way, God cannot abide our sin. Baptism was symbolic, to show others that Jesus was God, and to set precedence for what we should do.

Works. It is written that we do good works out of faith and love. But Good works mean nothing to God in themselves. In the Gospels, Jesus has a parable in which some priests and good people went to heaven. They were asked why they should be allowed in. They answered they should be allowed into Heaven because they did all kinds of good things in his [Jesus] name. To this Jesus replied that he never knew them and that they were not welcome. The point is the Christianity is about a true, authentic, relationship with the Living God. If you are truly living in Him, and living in his love and grace, then by that will your good works flow. Note that we are not perfect, but all are broken. We cannot by our own power change who we are, and what we are.

Note that in this day and age, satan is given dominion over earth. Not dierectly, but he has power here to tempt you and lead you astray. As for God. Those of you with children especially: Will you allow your child to ride a bike? Knowing that he will inevitably fall now and again and hurt him/herself? Most likely, it is part of learning to ride a bike. Most likely you are not going to walk around behind them on the bike every moment of every day or they will not grow and learn to ride on their own. In the same way,God allows us to grow in our faith by sending us trials. While he does not always send bad things our way, sometimes he allows them so as to help us realize that we need to subside in him. Read the book of Job. God does not send any ill-fortune his way, but he allows it to happen, so that we will know that we need to stand with His strength.

[mostyfriedman]

i guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, coz am still not convinced about the whole salvation thing..not to mention the concept of trinity and god being 3 in 1 or 1 in 3 or whatever..and that jesus is god or the son of god or whatever..

[computerfox]

it's not that you're not convinced, it's that you don't understand, according to the way you said it. and it's not a question of agreeing or not because those are the facts about Christianity, it's a question if you believe it or not and if not why. because you don't understand it?

This post has been edited by computerfox: 26 May 2009 - 12:36 PM

[jase81]

"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today
Is christians who acknowledge jesus with their lips
Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle.
That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."
- From the song "What If I Stumble" by DC Talk

"If i find in myself desires nothing in this world can satisfy,
I can only conclude that I was not made for here."
- From the song "C.S. Lewis Song" by Brooke Fraser
(Quoting C.S. Lewis from his book "Mere Christianity")

RE: The Trinity.
I could never explain how it works, I don't know if anyone can, but check this out (it's all I've got):

God = Jesus = Holy Spirit
Jesus = God or Holy Spirit in human form

Water = Ice = Steam
Ice = Water or Steam in solid form

All are the same they just exist in different states and perform different roles. This might also help with questions about the crucifixion of Jesus. When it came to God the Father crushing His son Jesus on the cross, He was in fact crushing part of the Trinity. In other words He was paying the price for our sins Himself out of His love for us.

[computerfox]

jase you got it up 1. don't claim to be something that you are not, but if you're gonna ridicule something at least know and understand the facts. it's one thing not to believe something, but it's another not to understand it.

This post has been edited by computerfox: 26 May 2009 - 01:39 PM

[WolfCoder]

Gorian, on 25 May, 2009 - 08:16 PM, said:

...
Get up and look outside. Everything in existence and creation screams intelligent design. All you have to do is look without a bias.

Ok, now I'm going to give you the benefit of sanity and hope you just forgot the basic laws of physics we've known for years. Not actually saying anything bad, but you might really not want to be a creationist. Now there's no problem with religion or anything but I implore you to understand the reason why creationism is really silly (intelligent design is just an attempt at re branding) and why the basis of creationism is heavily flawed.

For the argument that everything looks as designed as such, there are two nicely made counterpoints by those individuals.

"I could put pebbles in a shot glass and they wouldn't fit just right. But liquids fit perfectly, therefore, liquids were designed to fit in the shot glass, which of course sounds just as silly as saying the Earth was designed for life.

"Yes, there is a seemingly infinite chance that atoms and such could be in the right place, but it's not a random chance. Everything happens for a reason, just like a dice throw isn't really random.

[Gorian]

WolfCoder, on 26 May, 2009 - 01:01 PM, said:

Gorian, on 25 May, 2009 - 08:16 PM, said:

...
Get up and look outside. Everything in existence and creation screams intelligent design. All you have to do is look without a bias.

Ok, now I'm going to give you the benefit of sanity and hope you just forgot the basic laws of physics we've known for years. Not actually saying anything bad, but you might really not want to be a creationist. Now there's no problem with religion or anything but I implore you to understand the reason why creationism is really silly (intelligent design is just an attempt at re branding) and why the basis of creationism is heavily flawed.

For the argument that everything looks as designed as such, there are two nicely made counterpoints by those individuals.

"I could put pebbles in a shot glass and they wouldn't fit just right. But liquids fit perfectly, therefore, liquids were designed to fit in the shot glass, which of course sounds just as silly as saying the Earth was designed for life.

"Yes, there is a seemingly infinite chance that atoms and such could be in the right place, but it's not a random chance. Everything happens for a reason, just like a dice throw isn't really random.

On the contrary, the shot glass was designed to hold liquid. All about perspective.

[mostyfriedman]

computerfox, on 26 May, 2009 - 11:30 AM, said:

it's not that you're not convinced, it's that you don't understand, according to the way you said it. and it's not a question of agreeing or not because those are the facts about Christianity, it's a question if you believe it or not and if not why. because you don't understand it?

i believe that i understand pretty well.. i have actually read the bible and talked to many christians..and when i ask a question to 10 christians i get 10 different answers not to mention that the bible contains many scientific errors and contradictions...hope i didnt offend anyone

[Gorian]

On the contrary the bible does not contradict itself at all. You just need to read it. As you have not given any detailed examples of contradiction, I cannot help you understand better.

Also, for those that sometimes forget, we Christians are just as broken, just as sinful, and make just as many mistakes as anyone else

This post has been edited by Gorian: 26 May 2009 - 05:36 PM

[baavgai]

Gorian, on 26 May, 2009 - 06:32 PM, said:

On the contrary the bible does not contradict itself at all.

Genesis starts with the story of creation, stops, and starts with a different story of creation. This is from page one. The new testament tells many of the same stories from different points of view. Often with different interpretations.

No Biblical scholar with two brain cells to rub together would even think to call the scripture a contiguous or consistent work. Just the number of authors alone causes inconsistency.

This is why Fundamentalists of the "literal truth" Bible confuse me. Finding a single truth in scripture is, quite simply, impossible. And disagreements over this have killed people. Lots and lots of people.

[mostyfriedman]

also as an example of a scientific error, the bible says that every insect that walks on 4 feet is an abomination.. which insect has got four feet???..everyone knows that insects have got 6 feet..so i suppose that the author of the bible supposed to be god didn't know his own creation..

[Amadeus]

Playing devil's advocate (pun very much intended) for a moment (my views actually align far more closely with those of baavgai), you do realize that the classification of insects was an initiative of man, made long after most of the biblical content was written, right?