[supersloth]

it was pointed out that it is easy to comprehend random, we all comprehend it. if not, we couldn't be having this discussion. the problem is duplicating it, to create truly random results is where we start to fail. the concept of random isn't that hard.

[blutrane]

Quote

it was pointed out that it is easy to comprehend random, we all comprehend it. if not, we couldn't be having this discussion. the problem is duplicating it, to create truly random results is where we start to fail. the concept of random isn't that hard.

This.

whenever we try to randomize something, there is still an ordered set of processes that lead up to the 'random' decision

[dorknexus]

I'm not convinced that the mind is a predictable system so I would contest that perhaps the human mind is truly random. At the very least the mind seems complex enough to be truly random.

[blutrane]

The idea of free will in abstract gives credence to random decisions or thoughts or whatever, but the mind craves order, hence substituting data that might be lacking (illusions, optical and otherwise from the other thread, etc) and our thoughts and perceptions are based on sensory data or neural associations in an orderly or at least as perceived orderly fashion.

There are illnesses and disorders (and drugs) that cause different neurons to fire causing sensations that could be described as random (hallucinations). But there is an explainable cause.

[dorknexus]

Yes there are way to invoke predictable changes on the mind. But in its natural habitat, the human mind exhibits very random behavior. For instance, if you told me to randomly move my finger, I don't think there is anyway you could predict when I was going to move it.

This post has been edited by Dark_Nexus: 08 November 2010 - 11:03 AM

[blutrane]

That analogy makes it seem like a matter of perspective.

I would still know that some neuron fired in your brain and chemical and electrical stimuli actuated the nerves in your finger to cause the muscles in your finger to contract or expand (depending on which group) making your finger move

[dorknexus]

Right, you would know after the fact. But you wouldn't be able to predict when I was going to initiate that sequence ahead of time. Same with a die. You don't know how someone is going to throw it until they've thrown it and thus it is unpredictable.

[blutrane]

Ok, so by that definition, random is an event that is not predictable in some degree from the perspective of the viewer, regardless of knowledge of the process of causation

[dorknexus]

Well there is a difference between sufficiently random (random to the viewer) and truly random.

[blutrane]

naturally