[hookiethe1]

I have a friend who just graduated with a teaching degree, the poor girl. What a shitty time to be trying to find a job in teaching, when our douchebag governor has just cut 800 million from the education budget.

[BenignDesign]

Craig328, on 08 April 2011 - 09:27 AM, said:

BenignDesign, on 08 April 2011 - 09:21 AM, said:

It also means one of my best friends will be unemployed (she's a park ranger at the Flight 93 Memoral).

Far be it from me to be disrespectful about that event...but the memorial has a park with park rangers? Is it located at the crash site?



I get the desire to memorialize the event...but all they really had there was a crater and some jet parts. They built a park around a hole in the ground? I guess I can understand it now that I think on it but I just never really considered they'd build a park around a crash site.

Learned something new today.

Yup. They are located at the crash site, they give regularly scheduled speeches about 9-11 and the passengers of Flight 93... and are in the process of constructing an actual, permanent "memorial plaza":



Park Service: http://www.nps.gov/flni/index.htm

[xclite]

I have a meeting in 5 to determine if I'm furloughed. Kind of annoying that I have to use vacation days if I want to get paid because Congress can't get their shit together.

[Craig328]

To the actual thread topic, I think the question posed by the OP is a stark illustration of what's really wrong. Specifically, this question:

Quote

Are you getting tired enough of the American political system you've seriously thought about leaving?

I'm betting that most people that read that the first time don't see the real problem there. The sentence presents two essential points: a problem ("the American political system") and a suggested solution: ("seriously thought about leaving?"). The question devolves to the base issue ("government shutdown I guess in America") and indeed that is a serious problem because it's being threatened whilst trying to address an even more serious problem: American deficit budgets and the national debt. But the solution is to leave? Throw your hands up and walk away? Really?

The deficit budgets and debt are exceptionally serious issues facing the country. You have only to look around at Ireland, Portugal, Greece and others and you get a taste of what COULD happen here if we don't get this shit under control and start treating it seriously. Only problem is this: if the same thing happened to the United States the entire world suffers right along with us. Like it or not, the rest of the world's economy revolves around that of the United States and if our inability to control our spending continues unabated then our economy will suffer and by extension, everyone else's will too.



That pie chart was the 2010 budget. The 4 biggest blocks clockwise starting at the 12:00 position are Social Security, Defense, Unemployment/Welfare, and Medicare. Two thirds of the budget is right there. Of note, that little brown slice that starts at 9:00...that's the interest we pay on our existing debt (not actual debt payments...just the interest). So, with that in mind, this is where we are today:



That graph is the percentage of debt versus GDP or how much money the country actually generates each year. We've moved to within spitting distance of 100%. That means that our total debt is nearly as much as the entire country makes each year. With that you need to know that total tax revenue (not just federal but also state and local) tends to run anywhere from 24% to 28.5% of the GDP. If we want to round numbers off for easier discussion call our debt to GDP 100% (indeed, with the president's original proposed budget it would exceed 100% immediately) and our tax revenue to GDP 25%. Using those two admittedly non-precise numbers what it means is that for $100 in debt the government has run up, they collect only $25 per year TOTAL. That's not how much they pay to the debt...that's how much they take in altogether to fund things like the entire first graph. What's worse is that the existing debt gets bigger and bigger each additional minute that we operate under a deficit budget.

To illustrate that with real numbers: in 2010 the federal government brought in around $2.16T in tax revenues and fees. The budget the president submitted to Congress earlier this year for 2011 was $3.73T. Think on that moment. We just brought in $2.16T. We propose to spend $3.73T. The difference of $1.57T?...that's new debt. What's happening right now is that some folks (definitely not the majority because if it was, this shutdown wouldn't be a threat right now) have started to wake up and say "holy shit, we're in real trouble here"...and then they actually start saying "wait, while we could borrow more to live like a king today, maybe we shouldn't". The rise of the Tea Party? This is their number 1 issue. It's no coincidence that their candidates did pretty well this past election.

Congress isn't entirely serious yet (primarily because they won't do a damn thing about the 4 biggest expenditures mentioned above) but they're starting to figure out that we're much closer to our economy imploding than we should ever have gotten. Just so we're clear: even if the Democrats caved and gave in on every one of the Republican's budget demands and we get a 100% Republican wet-dream budget...it's still a deficit budget. What they're fighting about right now is how much of a deficit budget are we going to pass. Either side will add more money to the debt. Neither one will locate the political balls to make necessary cuts to any of the Big Four expenditures.

Most Americans know that deficit and debt = bad and they know we have both. Not all that many know the actual numbers and how they compare to one another and the GDP. It's much worse than the general perception.

[hookiethe1]

But that's always been one of the classic republican responses to anybody who is unhappy with the leadership: "Hey, you don't like it, leave." Sadly, that option has never been as attractive as it is now.

I feel bad for Obama, I think he could have been a really good President, but it'd be just about impossible for anybody to come out on top after the pile of shit he was handed.

[NeoTifa]

Thank you hookie, my thoughts exactly. I can seriously just picture Obama just sitting there crying from stress. I do feel really, really bad for him. He came into a shitstorm that Bush left, then all this since? And just to think about what's going on behind the scenes that's confidential that he's dealing with that we don't know about (possibly pushing back an impending alien attack? hey, you never know ) I think we should just throw all the congress out and start new Personally, I would seriously pay a higher tax rate if we could just fix this. Just tacking another 1 or 2 percent on wouldn't affect everybody that much, would it? But it'd bring in so many! That was the argument I made with the state budgeting for education a few years back. Just add like a 1-2 dollar "fine" so to say at the end of a utility bill designated for education, times that by the several million that live in my state, and bam! Lotsamoney.

[Craig328]

It was a response for war protesters in the 1960's. I haven't heard it with regard to debt and such. In fact, the last time I heard anyone pop off with the "leave" answer to an issue was some celebrities on the left should Bush have gotten elected instead of Kerry.

As for Obama, yeah, I think he's probably a genuinely decent guy. I'll admit that I didn't vote for him but my decision wasn't on the basis of his personality. However, while he did indeed get handed a bad situation, he didn't do himself any favors presenting a budget that increased the federal budget by nearly 8% in a year when unemployment was over 10% and domestic growth (GDP) was flat.

I don't care what you got handed...whenever you suggest a budget that exceeds your income by more than 70% when you're already in way over your head as it is...well, I can't grant a pass to blatant dumbassery like that no matter which party they're from.

[hookiethe1]

I tend to agree with you Neo, we're not going to fix anything by freezing taxes and cutting spending, especially on things like education and healthcare, all that does is lower everybody's standard of living. I'd be willing to pay more tax, just like a lot of Americans would, if someone said there was a way out.

[AlbuquerqueApache]

Craig, your one of the few people I have heard actually address some of the illegal technology transfers of the clinton era.

As I recall a lot of hard drives walked off from los alamos during those years and alot of rocket technology was transferred, namely to china.

it's not much of a wonder how the chinese have made so many advances in the last few years (2004 they put a man in orbit, 2006 or 2007, they do a lunar flyby (I have no idea why they used doctored NASA photos for this, I guess optics werent traded in the 90s lol.) I know they have been building their military up at an unbelievable rate.

I hate all politicians.....

[Sethro117]

Yes, I do think I could throw my hands up and leave without remorse. This country is going to shit and I dont feel like going with it. I'm not a huge fan of Obama but he was handed a pile of shit and I feel he has done well considering everything that has happened. However, Republican Congress and Democratic Administration aren't good. Its obvious with this impending shutdown that they dont care about the people of this country, I've heard of only 3 or 4 Senators say they wouldnt take a paycheck during the shutdown. COngress gets paid to much for what they do, people live beyond their means and yet they are throwing a temper tantrum over small issues and people are going to be without a job, without money, without food and the necessities for however long this shutdown lasts. It's complete bullshit and I for one will seriously look into leaving if our government shuts down just because Congress doesn't get their way.

Oh yea, Go Amercia.</sarcasm>

[Craig328]

The problem with paying more tax though is this: if you were to increase the tax rates so that tax revenues would cover federal budgets...what's to keep the congress from spending even more? Right now, absolutely nothing.

So, say the overall tax rate is 25%. We all get together and as the last strains of "kumbayah" fade into the night from our drum circle, we all agree to raise the rate to 30%. A 20% increase in your taxes. What do you do when Congress suddenly decides "holy cow, we didn't need to borrow ANY money this year...but damn, think of all the great shit we could have now if we do" and then they do just that and you have...a deficit budget but now you have the added delight of higher taxes.

What I'm saying is what is pretty blatant reality: no matter how high you raise taxes, Congress will find ways to spend/piss it all away and more. If we pay 25% they spend 42.5% (that is the actual ratio between Obama's proposed budget and tax revenues, BTW). If we pay 30% they spend 51%...and so on.

The solution isn't to continue to throw good money after bad. We aren't that foolish in real life, why would we be that foolish when it comes to government spending? What's needed is a cap on spending that can't be circumvented. Period. Only when you stop pouring gas on the burning house does spraying more water on it make sense.

[MATTtheSEAHAWK]

Our governments here to fuck shit up! Don't worry! Honestly I am sick and tired of politics. It's so corrupt. I read rolling stone articles all the time about this and it just makes pissed.

[Craig328]

AlbuquerqueApache, on 08 April 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

Craig, your one of the few people I have heard actually address some of the illegal technology transfers of the clinton era.

As I recall a lot of hard drives walked off from los alamos during those years and alot of rocket technology was transferred, namely to china.

it's not much of a wonder how the chinese have made so many advances in the last few years (2004 they put a man in orbit, 2006 or 2007, they do a lunar flyby (I have no idea why they used doctored NASA photos for this, I guess optics werent traded in the 90s lol.) I know they have been building their military up at an unbelievable rate.

I hate all politicians.....

Yeah, real coincidence, isn't it? I didn't mention China but yeah, it was China that Bill and Al were selling the country to in exchange for money for elections. I think the most ironic thing in the past 10 years is that while the country was riveted by the story of Bill being Bill and getting a beej, the real story was that he and quite a few of his buddies were getting a relative free pass on high treason. Minus Monica, the press (even as reluctant as they were to go after Bill and Al) would have had no real excuse to not follow that one a lot harder than they did.

Sethro117, on 08 April 2011 - 11:25 AM, said:

Yes, I do think I could throw my hands up and leave without remorse.

That's cool. Where you going to go where this problem, if left unaddressed, isn't going to affect you?

[Sethro117]

I'm going to buy an island. Change of plan, Ecuador.

This post has been edited by Sethro117: 08 April 2011 - 08:44 AM

[hookiethe1]

Actually Craig, the government before the current one in Australia raised taxes and trimmed budgets and in the space of 2 terms reduced Australia's foreign debt to zero, then actually opened a savings account. On the day Australia declared itself debt free, the gov introduced a round of tax cuts that resulted in my father taking home about a hundred dollars per week more than he had been, so it can be done.

On the technology thing, didn't Bill sell the Chinese the technology to be able to locate and track our stealth subs? That was a fucking brilliant idea.