[WinkyCode]

I am wondering if carrying a firearm on your hip, in a holster connected to your belt, is being considered concealed weapon ?

I carry often a knife of 10 cm/4" but for me it is a tool. It's in a holster on my belt. Not concealed at all. As is the screwdriver I carry in my breast-pocket. Or the ink-pen and CD-writing pen I also carry in my breast-pocket.

How is a knife a tool in your everyday life? It makes it easier to open envelopes and package and also open stuff you buy, for example light bulbs package.

[NeoTifa]

skyhawk133, on 10 May 2011 - 09:49 PM, said:

Not real keen on the idea of walking in on a bank robbery and mowing down the robbers. Or actively searching out crimes against other people just so I could intervene and take credit.

I do. Then again, I kinda wanna be a cop a little bit.

[xclite]

I just want to be part of a warring faction of bank robbers - that way I can indiscriminately mow down bank robbers AND steal the loot.

[absynthe]

Check out the story on Grundy Virginia where having guns helped prevent another awful school shooting:

Quote

Grundy, Virginia. At Appalachian Law School, a disgruntled student on the verge of his second suspension entered a school building and shot and killed the dean and a professor. He then shot four students, killing one. Hearing the shots fired, two students, Michael Gross and Tracy Bridges, ran to their cars to retrieve their guns.
With guns aimed at the shooter, Bridges ordered him to drop his weapon. When the shooter turned and saw Bridges' gun, he laid down his weapon and put his hands in the air. (My pro-Second Amendment documentary, "Michael and Me," goes into detail about this incident, as well as others.)

wiki link to the story

This post has been edited by absynthe: 11 May 2011 - 06:10 AM

[Aphex19]

It doesn't scare me to think that a person near me was carrying a gun, unless they were capable of harming innocent people, but then again, they wouldn't have the gun in that case, would they? To be honest, I'm glad I live in the UK where semi-automatic guns and all handguns are outlawed to the general public, although I would probably be armed to the teeth if I lived in America.

[xclite]

Aphex19, on 11 May 2011 - 09:29 AM, said:

It doesn't scare me to think that a person near me was carrying a gun, unless they were capable of harming innocent people, but then again, they wouldn't have the gun in that case, would they?

Faulty logic - guns can be used to defend innocent people, while harming the guilty party.

[Craig328]

A couple of observations. I'm a CCW holder and I occasionally carry. Occasionally because most of the time my weapon stays in its holster in my briefcase which is normally not more than a few feet from me most of the day when I'm away from home. When I do carry, it's not charged (meaning there isn't a round in the chamber) and it's in an inside-the-pants holster (meaning you can't really see it unless you're looking for it).

I'm not one of those who goes about just waiting for something bad to happen so I can spring into heroic action and save the day. That's utter crap in my opinion but a lot of the anti-gun folk like to portray CCW holders in just that light. Most CCW folk simply understand that you have to be prepared to take responsibility for your own safety should matters arise that dictate such.

Having said all that and being possessed of a respect for the constitution that should limit our freedoms in the least restrictive way possible, I'm not sure how I feel about guns on a college campus...and more directly, in the hands of college students. Have all of us forgotten just how immature the typical college student is? Do you really think it's a good idea to allow such people to be armed in an atmosphere where alcohol abuse and really poor decisions and absent impulse control is "cool"? The college experience is more than sober students going about their daily lectures and labs and studying in the library and because there's no practical way to separate responsible college activities from irresponsible ones, I can discern the argument for erring on the side of caution. Professors being armed? I'm good with that. Drunk ass freshmen who are acting out because it's the first time they're out from under mommy and daddy's direct supervision? Not so much.

For the same reason the states with CCW tend to have laws saying you can't carry into a bar, I can see an argument for not allowing firearms on a college campus. I get and can sympathize with an argument using Virginia Tech as an illustration but that's an incredibly rare occurrence and would likely not outweigh the damage the irresponsible use of allowed firearms would cause. If we were dealing with a college campus massacre as often as once every couple of years, I could see the balance tipping some...but we're not so it doesn't.

[lordofduct]

It may not be 'logical' or what not. That's not the point of it.

I just find the whole concealed carry permit thing a load of bullshit. I've met the likes of people that are allowed to get them, and that is really freakin' scary. And if you met them you'd be just as freakin' scared. I'm talking drug addled retards with the IQ of a chimpanzee and the anger management skills of an atomic bomb.

Not saying guns should be banned. I'm saying concealed carry laws are really fuckin' retarded.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 11 May 2011 - 08:00 AM

[creativecoding]

Does anyone know if there are any laws that require a signed statement from a doctor for people who have had mental illnesses in the past in order to own a gun? IMO people with depression or anger management problems shouldn't be allowed to even buy a gun without approval.

This post has been edited by creativecoding: 11 May 2011 - 08:05 AM

[Craig328]

Well, I suppose in response a reasonable person could point out:

• A personal anecdote might be sufficient to form a personal opinion but not to craft laws applicable to the mass of society (other folks have other experiences)
  
• The CCW process, in most states, excludes mental defects (aka: "retards with the IQ of a chimpanzee") as well as felons (aka: "drug addled retards") and finally those with a record of domestic and other violence (aka: "anger management skills of an atomic bomb")
  
• You assume that you're aware of all the CCW permit holders around you. The vast majority of them don't make a big deal about it, act responsibly and are unobtrusive...meaning that you're likely around them all the time and don't know it.

Now, you did preface that with "logical or not" and I can entirely agree that I know plenty of people I'd prefer not to be in the possession of a working firearm...but that goes beyond the status of being a CCW holder. Typically, if you go to the trouble of applying for and obtaining a permit to carry concealed you're not any of the categories you listed as reasons to be concerned about such permits.

Plenty of loose screws have guns but they don't bother to acquire a CCW permit...they just carry them anyway.

creativecoding, on 11 May 2011 - 11:05 AM, said:

Does anyone know if there are any laws that require a signed statement from a doctor for people who have had mental illnesses in the past in order to own a gun? IMO people with depression or anger management problems shouldn't be allowed to even buy a gun without approval.

Mental illness prohibitions with regard to a CCW permit

This post has been edited by Craig328: 11 May 2011 - 08:14 AM

[Nykc]

Didn't read any of this. They are trying to allow CCW in bars in Ohio. I heard all the stories as well. My personal take, we have enough problems with guns. Oh but I took a class, I have a permit so I am a responsible person. "So says fucko who just murdered his entire family then himself in the burbs." He took a class too.

No I do not agree with the logic here.

[Craig328]

Nykc, on 11 May 2011 - 11:21 AM, said:

Didn't read any of this. They are trying to allow CCW in bars in Ohio. I heard all the stories as well. My personal take, we have enough problems with guns. Oh but I took a class, I have a permit so I am a responsible person. "So says fucko who just murdered his entire family then himself in the burbs." He took a class too.

No I do not agree with the logic here.

You do realize the difference between owning a firearm and having a permit to carry it concealed, right? Because your example of someone murdering his family in the burbs has zero to do with having a permit to carry it concealed. It would have been just as applicable to say your against the mandatory serving of spinach in school cafeterias for the same reason.

Just sayin'

This post has been edited by Craig328: 11 May 2011 - 08:28 AM

[lordofduct]

yey, craig over analyzes a off the cuff opinion of mine!

Craig328, on 11 May 2011 - 03:14 PM, said:

A personal anecdote might be sufficient to form a personal opinion but not to craft laws applicable to the mass of society (other folks have other experiences)

Derp, that's why it's an opinion and not a basis for law. I didn't suggest it aught to be the basis for law.

Quote

The CCW process, in most states, excludes mental defects (aka: "retards with the IQ of a chimpanzee") as well as felons (aka: "drug addled retards") and finally those with a record of domestic and other violence (aka: "anger management skills of an atomic bomb")

What is the screening process for this? Really they don't allow you to have a gun under the grounds of 'stupid'? Please show me a state that has any regulation restricting guns based on 'stupid'. Mental defect yes, felon yes, but IQ? Haven't heard of that one.

Quote

You assume that you're aware of all the CCW permit holders around you. The vast majority of them don't make a big deal about it, act responsibly and are unobtrusive...meaning that you're likely around them all the time and don't know it.

You assume I assume this is 'all'. When did I say 'all'?

Quote

Now, you did preface that with "logical or not" and I can entirely agree that I know plenty of people I'd prefer not to be in the possession of a working firearm...but that goes beyond the status of being a CCW holder. Typically, if you go to the trouble of applying for and obtaining a permit to carry concealed you're not any of the categories you listed as reasons to be concerned about such permits.

Aw yes, I did preface it with that.

Quote

Plenty of loose screws have guns but they don't bother to acquire a CCW permit...they just carry them anyway.

This very line has been repeated a few times here. I think a lot of people have left out one big thing though. Crazies and weirdos function in some odd ways. A huge category of whom love to be validated by the system. They'll do stupid shit because the system gave them specific right to do so. Haven't we heard of the phrase "to give enough rope to hang themselves"?





Let me catalyze this that I ended my statement by saying I do not believe in banning guns. Only that in my opinion and experiences, the laws show obvious flaws. Cause you'd be surprised the numbers of people I know who do slip through the cracks and get gun permits who probably really would scare the fuckin' snot out of you to know they have them, take glee in it, and are ready and willing to 'excercise their freedom' on a whim.

And a part of me thinks I might have to repeat one of those lines again.

I do not believe in banning guns

My anecdote doesn't say anything about tightening or reducing regulation on guns. You can't really deduce what my opinion is on that matter. I really only stated that the current laws allow for some scary people to legally be validated in carrying and using their guns.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 11 May 2011 - 08:42 AM

[Luckless]

I think the difference is that people who want to go on a shooting spree will have a gun regardless of the circumstances. I personally intend on getting a carry permit next year. One stipulation you might be able to add might be running through a training course once a month or something, in order to keep your permit valid. I think this encourages responsibility and makes the whole prospect a much safer deal. If every normal citizen is packing heat w/ the proper training and constant refreshing of this training, I think it makes for a safer society, because the knowledge that people are packing should deter all but the craziest of crazies.

[Craig328]

Quote

I didn't suggest it aught to be the basis for law.

Quote

I just find the whole concealed carry permit thing a load of bullshit.

CCW is a law. You find it to be bullshit. You expressed an opinion regarding the law. Pardon me if I actually read what you wrote. Maybe you should try it sometime.

Otherwise, wading through all that stream of consciousness you do come to "the laws show obvious flaws" by saying "...the numbers of people I know who do slip through the cracks and get gun permits who probably really would scare the fuckin' snot out of you to know they have them, take glee in it, and are ready and willing to 'excercise their freedom' on a whim".

So, you're pointing out that the law allowing the carrying of concealed weapon won't catch those who do not have a documented history of mental illness and who haven't been convicted of a felony and who haven't been convicted of crime related to battery or domestic violence. Uh...yes? And? This isn't a flaw. This is the law. You know, United States of America? Innocent until proven guilty? You have all rights not specifically restricted by the Constitution?

I get it that there are those people who may not meet the LordOfDuct Litmus Test® but that's more a function of your own personal standards and values and not those that can be codified and applied fairly and impartially. To label the law as "flawed" implies that they missed something when crafting it. Is what they missed that they didn't ask you or is there something more you forget to mention?

You're okay with codifying a subjective assessment to be part of a law regulating personal rights and freedoms? That seems to be what you're suggesting.