[dorknexus]

He didn't agree with what jobs stood for. He made it clear that it was unfortunate he was dead. I think we had a similar discussion about Osama Bin Laden. You can understand that he was a father and a friend and that his family misses him and that nobody deserves to die. At the same time you can be completely fine with the fact that he's not doing what he was doing anymore. That seems like a reasonable and decent stance to me. He's entitled to his opinion on how he feels about the man. For him, in some way, i'm sure jobs represented some form of evil.

Not everyone is obligated to sit around and say "oh gee wiz golly this sure is an awful thing and there is no way that anyone can disagree with that. nobody could ever have any opposition to all the clearly good and great things steve jobs did."

quite clearly, richard stallman doesn't feel that way. so he doesn't view steve jobs as some sort of saint. so what?

This post has been edited by dorknexus: 07 October 2011 - 10:12 AM

[jon.kiparsky]

You don't have to think someone's a saint to be a decent person.
Can you not disagree with someone without celebrating their death before they're even in the ground? Is every argument now war to the knives, is that what we've come to?

Quote

He made it clear that it was unfortunate he was dead.

I'm sorry, but when someone dies, and you say you're glad they're gone, you're celebrating. There's no mealymouthed wordsmithing that you can do to get around that. Stallman said quite simply, "I'm glad he's gone". Where's he gone? He's dead. What is Stallman glad of? That the man's dead. Period. Everything else he says just makes a liar of him, if he denies his words in the same breath he speaks them.
How can you defend this? This is the worst of humanity, parading its fat hairy naked ass before you. "I disagree with you, therefore your death is a holiday on my calendar" is hardly a way to conduct a civil defference of views.

[dorknexus]

How else would you like him to say "It's unfortunate that the guy is dead. I view his contributions to have had a negative impact on computing."

Or are you not allowed to think that?

Quote

"I disagree with you, therefore your death is a holiday on my calendar" is hardly a way to conduct a civil defference of views.

Good thing he didn't actually say that, huh?

This post has been edited by dorknexus: 07 October 2011 - 10:59 AM

[jon.kiparsky]

That would be fine. Or, since there's nobody alive who doesn't know that Stallman opposed Apple's mode of doing business, just leave it at "I'm sorry the guy died, and I want to convey my condolences to his family". If he wanted to be a little classy, he might have added something complimentary - even Stallman could probably find something to like about Jobs, like the fact that (by all reports) he was a amazingly smart individual and a nice guy, when he wasn't at your throat. Kind of like Stallman, in fact.

It's not a matter of what you're allowed to think, it's a matter of recognizing that sometimes it's best to let the squabble simmer for a day or two. Sometimes civility is more important than putting the boot in one last time.

[dorknexus]

[jon.kiparsky]

Yep. It is that. And doesn't the guy on the right look like he's wearing Mickey Mouse ears?

[Prognoob]

jimmyBo, on 05 October 2011 - 04:58 PM, said:

I almost cried when I read that - the world has lost an amazing man and a visionary, who has inspired us all.
I'll miss him.

What time did he die?

Me too man, its a sad day.

[WolfCoder]

jon.kiparsky, on 07 October 2011 - 12:04 PM, said:

That would be fine. Or, since there's nobody alive who doesn't know that Stallman opposed Apple's mode of doing business, just leave it at "I'm sorry the guy died, and I want to convey my condolences to his family". If he wanted to be a little classy, he might have added something complimentary - even Stallman could probably find something to like about Jobs, like the fact that (by all reports) he was a amazingly smart individual and a nice guy, when he wasn't at your throat. Kind of like Stallman, in fact.

It's not a matter of what you're allowed to think, it's a matter of recognizing that sometimes it's best to let the squabble simmer for a day or two. Sometimes civility is more important than putting the boot in one last time.

We're not allowed to dislike dead people?

[modi123_1]

No.. that's how zombies are made.

Oddly the zombie steve jobs on Twitter hasn't updated anything yet.

[Programmist]

Jon - don't bother. Class is something that is in desperately short supply these days. Anyone who has read my posts or who knows me knows I don't like Apple and refuse to buy their and over-priced, pretty toys because of their hostile business practices (and other reasons I won't recant again). But I've never felt that someone's death was cause to express anything other than condolences if appropriate and sincere. Otherwise I STFU. Class is having the opportunity to get the last word on your dead rival, but instead letting it go. Stallman is an ass. Always has been. He's has many good points, but being right is rarely the most important thing. He apparently hasn't learned that lesson yet.

[ishkabible]

this kinda reminds me of the Iliad(Hector vs Achilles, Jobs vs Stallman) both hero's in their own cultures but after Achilles kills hector he is portrayed in a less favorable light after defiling Hectors body.

ok...i think im tried, i hated those poems(we read parts of it in school)

[RetardedGenius]

jimmyBo, on 06 October 2011 - 01:10 AM, said:

modi123_1, on 06 October 2011 - 10:02 AM, said:

AdamSpeight2008, on 05 October 2011 - 06:59 PM, said:

You couldn't have hoped/paid for better Marketing.

When is the new IPhone released?

From what I am reading the horrible launch for the 4gs may have done him in.

Sad.

Still, you can't be disrespectful. Without apple a lot of the things you take for granted in a computer (the GUI for example) wouldn't exist (not in this form).
And what was wrong with the launch? I watched it through the apple site and it was fine, the new CEO did a great job at announcing.
Steve Jobs was a great man, and will continue to live on in Apple and their products.

Oh, I almost forgot.
RIP Steve! We'll miss you.

I don't know why so many people are attributing the Graphical User Interface to Jobs: History of The Graphical User Interface.

I've never been a fan of apple and I've always thought that their products are overpriced but I cannot deny that Steve Jobs was a very influential person and a true genius when it came to selling his ideas and marketing his products. If you anyone hasn't seen his 2005 Standford Speech, I'd really recommend it.

[Choscura]

I'll miss his contributions to technology (clarification: his slick ideas that he himself wasn't actually capable of implementing), but as a person Steve was pretty horrible. Had a kid, denied she was his until she got a DNA test and a court order- started a company (Apple- maybe you've heard of it) with another guy, told the other guy they'd split the profits 50-50 and then lied about the profits so he could have a bigger share... and this is just stuff I know off the top of my head. I could look up the fraud he was apparently involved in (something about misstated stock prices) but it's just pointless now.

To say he was a great visionary is probably accurate- but to say that without him the personal computing scene (and smartphones and everything else) wouldn't have been as good isn't something we can say, because we don't know what would have happened. Maybe things would have been better without him, maybe they would have been worse, but we can't say it would have been one thing or the other because we just don't know. If he hadn't invented the GUI in the way it exists now, maybe something else would have been invented that was better- maybe a database would have been the standard way of storing files for users instead of a filesystem or some goofy switch like that. Maybe joysticks or touch pads would have been vogue, not mice.

Miss him if you really want to, but be honest and admit that the guy was an asshole who did some brilliant things that, hopefully, made up for that to the people that it mattered to.

[WolfCoder]

*Citation Needed

[supersloth]

Choscura, on 08 October 2011 - 02:12 PM, said:

I'll miss his contributions to technology (clarification: his slick ideas that he himself wasn't actually capable of implementing)

one day i'll miss choscura's talking about others contributions to technology that he himself is not actually capable of implementing.