[Craig328]

"Kids getting guns and shooting each other is a symptom of a deeper problem." On this I would agree but would like to offer a different thought on what I think a contributing problem is.

For the last couple of decades, there's been a concerted societal effort to boost the self esteem of children. When kids do something well they get rewarded but the other kids who didn't do as well get rewarded too. What this says is "it doesn't matter what you do, it's all good". Every time a kid makes a mistake it's "it's okay, everyone makes mistakes, don't worry about it" and off the kid goes feeling good about him or herself. What this has evolved into though is a generation who feels that their existence is the pinnacle of society's concerns. They've been taught that rules and performance doesn't matter...only how they feel matters. That is, the individual has been elevated so much through so much false validation and unwarranted ego stroking that should circumstances conspire to make the individual feel like they're NOT being elevated to their accustomed lofty position, whether it be amongst family, friends, co-workers and school mates, some of them are literally at a loss for how to cope with the notion that they're not the very apex of humanity.

Add to this that popular culture glorifies gun play practically everywhere you look. Television, movies, popular music (rap especially) and you'll see a general overall attitude of "me first" mixed in with a healthy dose of "if it's 'wrong' solve it with a gun". Throw in the general childhood perception that people can get shot and then get right back up and go about life as though nothing untoward happened and you see how some small slice of the population sees solving their issues with a gun is not an absolutely abhorrent idea.

In short their problem is that people aren't "respecting" them (aka: they're not regarding me as perfect and infallible) and their solution is to either make people respect them or punish those who have done this bad thing (not respecting or paying enough attention to them).

That's my personal observation. YMMV.

This post has been edited by Craig328: 29 February 2012 - 12:34 PM

[lordofduct]

agreed

That's why I think "no child left behind" is a load of fucking crap. Sorry America, some kids fail, it's inevitable! Why in the fuck is most children's education being stunted because your retard of a child isn't that smart, but instead we have to 'practice' boring standardized tests over and over instead of actually cracking open a damn school book.

In high school I remember spending 2 straight months practicing for the FCAT (Florida Comprehensive Assessment Test). My graduating year was the last grade year that was NOT required to take the FCAT. I would be in a class-room populated by primarily, if not all, students who were in my graduating year. And yet here we were practicing for the stupid test, no matter how well we did on it, we practiced more. Then at the end of the school year, 8 chapters left in our text book, the teacher would either speed through chapters or just not even bother.

"So here's the final exam, ignore questions 130 through 200 because those are on chapters we did not get to"

I went to community college in the same county. When I took Calculus the majority of students around me had no idea what matrices and vectors were... oh yeah, that was chapter 18 in Algebra class, we never got to that chapter in high school.



My peers from my generation walk around with this huge ego and refuse to be corrected.

"What you just said is demonstrably wrong."

"Ummm, hey, you're condescending to me and that hurts my feelings... you can't do that. So I'm going to hold onto my demonstrably incorrect dream fantasy of a magical belief because it makes me feel better."

(and yes I'm talking about demonstrable facts, not opinions)

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 29 February 2012 - 12:47 PM

[Craig328]

Well, I don't know so much that an educational program intended to stop of the practice of just passing failing kids along to the next grade is what I had in mind (although I'm sure it's not helping).

It's just that, well, I tend to believe that people aren't a whole lot different today than they were 50, 100, 200 years ago and more. What's different is the society they function in. Ours has decided, starting about 40 or so years ago, that the individual in many ways is to be lauded. This started with an emphasis on individuality but when that concept started encountering people who failed at being unique achievers, rather than suggest that not everyone can be outstanding, it was collectively determined that EVERYONE is outstanding...with no real objective means to describe achievement. Basically, we celebrate the existence of the person as though it were a special thing when, in actual fact, it's not.

I believe that children NEED well established boundaries and rules. They don't need to be applied with wanton cruelty or malicious glee but kids' psychological development needs to have some kind of solid, unchanging aspects that they can always count on to never change. behavioral rules, etiquette, achievement in education, sports, hobbies and so on...those all used to be valued things that have been systematically belittled and diminished in favor of the "unique snowflake" approach to regarding every single kid as special during their formative years. Trouble is, that kind of artificial fan club atmosphere can't and doesn't last long past childhood...and so when you've been regarded as special all your life up to a point and now suddenly you aren't...and the usual moral guideposts have been removed so that you could "grow freely"...what does a child know about reacting to that? I believe that this contributes to kids who turn to "goth" or "emo" as a means of identifying themselves. They almost overreact to the revelation they're not unique and special anymore.

[supersloth]

man, i never got a ribbon for 17th place. growing up in the early 90's was HORSESHIT.

[h4nnib4l]

Craig328, on 29 February 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

Throw in the general childhood perception that people can get shot and then get right back up and go about life as though nothing untoward happened...

I forget about this, because my kids are growing up with a Marine Corps Iraqi war veteran, so they understand both sides of violent actions better than most kids do. They know that Daddy left friends behind, and that Memorial Day isn't about beer and hamburgers in our family, blah blah blah, but more importantly, they have seen first-hand the sorrow that guns cause. What you refer to has existed long enough that it exists in adults now, too. The glorification and excitement of violence... Ask the citizens of a war-torn country (try Iraq or Afghanistan, and I'm talking about the non-militants) how fucking glorious they think shooting is. Sorry, got off on a rant a bit...

lordofduct, on 29 February 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

That's why I think "no child left behind" is a load of fucking crap. Sorry America, some kids fail, it's inevitable! Why in the fuck is most children's education being stunted because your retard of a child isn't that smart, but instead we have to 'practice' boring standardized tests over and over instead of actually cracking open a damn school book.

"No child left behind" makes me want to scream. My kids just changed schools a month ago, into a smaller and more affluent school district (Daddy's degree is finally paying off). They are nearly a year behind in some subjects, because the classes at their school were so heavily disrupted by horribly-behaving kids. Kids throwing chairs at teachers, sexually harassing other students (how the FUCK does a third grader grab girls asses!?), and the teachers being unable to do anything about it. This school is one of the top-rated schools in the state (Texas) for its standardized test scores, and yet they are way behind what they should be learning, because they have to 'wait' for kids who have no intention of ever learning. My kids are very good students, but they are now suffering because our schools (and our society as a whole) caters to the lowest common denominator..

[lordofduct]

Craig328, on 29 February 2012 - 02:51 PM, said:

Well, I don't know so much that an educational program intended to stop of the practice of just passing failing kids along to the next grade is what I had in mind (although I'm sure it's not helping).

That may have been its intent, but that's not what it does, nor does it actually do anything to stop it. The rule basically says, "we don't want you speeding, so we're going to make everyone come into the DMV every 6 months and retake the driving test, in those cities whose drivers have too high a percentage of failures on that test will have their speeding fines increased, their speed limits decreased, and those failed drivers will remain on the roads".

And it's not like that still doesn't occur, and actually a lot of schools now do it more. Instead now droves of class rooms cheat on their comprehension tests so the school doesn't lose funding.

I see no problem in the idea of students staying back, going to summer school, getting tutors. But slowing the entire class room down so that josh the hyper-active retard who thinks he's a robot that is fueled by the farts of little girls has been wasting everyone's time running from desk to desk sniffing the asses of everyone.

(and that's not made up... I've met Josh)

Josh is kicked out of that classroom. No the education of the students should not suffer, and no the teacher's income should not suffer, and no the entrie school's budget should not suffer, because Josh the fucking retard got an F because Josh the fucking retard can't even spell his own name let alone do Geometry!

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 29 February 2012 - 01:16 PM

[h4nnib4l]

Craig328, on 29 February 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

I believe that children NEED well established boundaries and rules. They don't need to be applied with wanton cruelty or malicious glee but kids' psychological development needs to have some kind of solid, unchanging aspects that they can always count on to never change.

At our previous home, our neighbors were hardcore rednecks. You know, the ones who talk REALLY loudly and will loudly share the most intimate details of their lives with utter strangers in passing? The mom was barely over thirty when the oldest son enlisted, and their youngest daughter was in early elementary school. Her name was Oriah, but I called her Ukulele because i couldn't understand her when she talked. The oldest daughter (high school age) basically raised Ukul because the mom ignored her. The mom and the sister would get into SCREAMING fights with this little girl, because she didn't listen to them. She really was a sweet kid, she just didn't know how to act. The first time I told her to do something and she ignored me, I locked her the fuck on, and so did my wife when she had that problem. From that point forward, we could tell her to do something and we got "Yes sir" and "Yes ma'am" with NO hesitation. No fear of consequences, no intimidation, the poor kid just wanted some fucking consistency and structure. Kids THRIVE in loving, structured environments, and not always getting your own way as a kid is vital to development into adulthood.

[supersloth]

h4nnib4l, on 29 February 2012 - 01:07 PM, said:

I forget about this, because my kids are growing up with a Marine Corps Iraqi war veteran, so they understand both sides of violent actions better than most kids do.

because they were fighting in the war? or because they were cleaning up others battle wounds?

[h4nnib4l]

supersloth, on 29 February 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

because they were fighting in the war? or because they were cleaning up others battle wounds?

Wow.

[supersloth]

they were desk jockeys then?

[h4nnib4l]

guess so

[modi123_1]

Quote

I locked her the fuck on, and so did my wife when she had that problem.

Ah, what were you doing to this elementary school kid? Locked her on??

[h4nnib4l]

Shit, this is going downhill for me.

It just means "corrected"... In her case, got stern but not mean.

[SpartanGuy07]

Back to the original topic...

I saw this article this afternoon and thought it was interesting and something worth sharing.

Coach Chases Shooter

According to teachers at the school, the football coach yelled to and chased after the gunman after he opened fire. According to the police, he probably saved lives by doing this, but I think it's amazing he just had that instinctive bravery and fearless-ness.

This post has been edited by SpartanGuy07: 01 March 2012 - 02:10 PM

[NecroWinter]

unfortunately there are a lot of contributing factors to why I think school shootings are becoming more common in our country.

A few issues (in no specific order)

1. Lots of guns, often very easy to get

2. The family has essentially fallen apart because both parents are too busy serving corporate overlords for next to no money

3. schools are like prisons now. Ever since Columbine it became that way. I was in 7th grade when it all happened, and the changes the schools made only contribute more to the feeling of frustration.

4. Our culture is becoming more and more stupid, and some people just cant handle it. Turn on the TV, and youll understand why so many kids growing up feel really pessimistic about things.

5. We are taught not to express emotions(men, anyway), and for some people this really bottles things up. Im not talking about being sensitive either, like teaching boys to cry or to hug each other twice a day. I think people need to express frustration and anger before it becomes a real issue. It used to be that men couldnt express emotions except for anger or something, now a days kids in hs cant even express that unless you're like a principle or teacher. So much as getting a nasty tone with someone can often lead to the police getting called. This happened to me in HS. I thought a teacher said something profoundly stupid, and in a dismissive manner I essentially said "yeah..." and did a motion with my arm that looked something like a "yeehaw" kinda thing, in essence I was calling her a hick. What did she do? Said I made a fist and I almost got expelled. Luckily after much arguing, it became clear that the school had no ground to stand on.