[tlhIn`toq]

ishkabible, on 14 May 2012 - 07:13 PM, said:

"government official" basically means anyone who makes law, interprets law, or enforces law, so everyone who has any control over law. I'm going to throw out a wild guess and say they made them selves special cuz they could.

The idea is to try to cut down the temptation to intimated those that make the laws. It's kind of common sense if you stop and think, rather than look for a reason to protest.

Gangs and organized crime don't have a problem with killing the mayor or district attorney. They will happily hire someone to do it if they can be back on the street in 10 years. But by bumping up to life or death penalty even the hired assassins might think twice about taking the contract. It at least reduces the labor pool.

[lordofduct]

Premeditated murder, especially that of hire, is not a 10 year charge.

For instance, where I live in Florida 1st degree murder (which is what you're describing, regardless of being a government official or not) comes with a life sentence or death penalty.

2nd degree murder is 25 years minimum if a gun is involved, 20.5 minimum if no gun.

Just look through this list:
http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States

Pretty much every state is pretty much up there with life sentence, no parole, death penalty, and the sort for 1st degree murder.

Shit in the state of Florida, just firing a gun in a criminal act (no deaths) can get you up to 25 years.

Nor does this all mean that assault on a government official warrants similar distictions for your described reasons. If I defensively assault an officer in the heat of the moment, is not the same as planning out an intimidation method on a mayor. There are clear distinctions in law between organized terrorizing of people, and the heat of the moment type crimes.



So I call bullshit.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 19 May 2012 - 07:51 AM

[tlhIn`toq]

creativecoding, on 14 May 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

The police are the largest street gang in America.

Kid, you really need to grow the f*uck up. Stop regurgitating this "down with the man" b.s. you think is cool because the older teens on the C.W. network tell you it is.

How about if you ride along in South Central LA, or slums of Chicago for a week? Get shot at for making a traffic stop... Answer a domestic dispute and get stabbed for trying to keep a man from beating his wife...

Are there some bad apples out there? Yes. And they are the ones that get the press because it sells papers and gets high TV ratings. For every bad incident there are 10,000 acts of good and bravery. Just showing up for work carrying nothing but a 9mm when you know the gang members are carrying illegal full-auto uzi's is an level of bravery I doubt you even grasp let alone possess.

2% of anything is crap. Police. Cars off the assembly line. Meals in a restaurant, Software developers. But those are the ones everyone talk about incessantly, ruining the reputation of an entire brand. How would you like it if the entire programming industry was judged by the lazy shits that post 90% of the questions here? Would you appreciate hearing:

Quote

You're a software developer: That makes you a lazy, good for nothing, piece of shit that is only looking to scam people out of their credit card data, write viruses to destroy people's computer and steal their information and try to make a living by copy/pasting other people's work and claiming it as your own. You're blight on society.

[jon.kiparsky]

tlhIn`toq, on 19 May 2012 - 09:44 AM, said:

creativecoding, on 14 May 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

The police are the largest street gang in America.

Kid, you really need to grow the f*uck up. Stop regurgitating this "down with the man" b.s. you think is cool because the older teens on the C.W. network tell you it is.

But dude, it sounds so clever when I say that!

[tlhIn`toq]

lordofduct, on 19 May 2012 - 08:43 AM, said:

Premeditated murder, especially that of hire, is not a 10 year charge.

For instance, where I live in Florida 1st degree murder (which is what you're describing, regardless of being a government official or not) comes with a life sentence or death penalty.

2nd degree murder is 25 years minimum if a gun is involved, 20.5 minimum if no gun.

So I call bullshit.

Yes. That's the assigned penalty. Then there is the over crowding of prisons. The good behavior reduction. The assassin has found God and turned over a leaf.... Sentenced to 20, out in 7-10. That's true bullshit part.

Old west justice worked and should never have ended. If you were found guilty of murder you were taken out behind the court house and stretched by the neck until you quit kickin'. Parents brought their kids out to witness the murderous piece of crap die an ugly death and shit is drawers. "Now grow up to be a good many little Johnny or that might be you one day."

It worked for 100 years. It was the original "Scared Straight" program and it worked.

But then we had to get civilized. Remove all that from daily life. Meat comes in plastic and nobody wants to know about the butchering. Jails got cleaned up. Softened up. There was a time when the threat of going to jail was actually scary. Now you take some banger off the street and he looks at a new prison as a step up from his old ghetto.

[lordofduct]

Now you're getting into what the sentence for murder should be.

The topic ishkabible was on about, that you quoted, was if the sentence should be harsher, by default, just because it's a government official. May it be murder, or assault.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 19 May 2012 - 08:02 AM

[jon.kiparsky]

Simple economics suggests that the penalty for attacking or killing a police officer on duty should be higher than generic assault or murder.

[no2pencil]

lordofduct, on 19 May 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

Shit in the state of Florida, just firing a gun in a criminal act (no deaths) can get you up to 25 years.

I have only heard this through the Traylon Martin case, but the news & media outlets said that Florida has a shoot first in self defense law. To my understanding the law was explained to give the ability for anyone to shoot first if they felt their life was in immediate danger.

[modi123_1]

This law?
JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE

[h4nnib4l]

It's called Stand Your Ground (quite a few states have it currently). It basically states that you don't have to "retreat" before you are allowed to use deadly force to defend yourself.

[h4nnib4l]

There was even a push for a Trayvon Martin Amendment that would withhold some federal funding from any state with a Stand Your Ground law. The amendment has been withdrawn, but I doubt it's the last we'll hear of it.

[tlhIn`toq]

Works for me.
http://stlaurent.me/..._new_AR-15.html

One of the reasons I always have either my 9m or .380 on me.

An armed society is a polite society.

[creativecoding]

tlhIn`toq, on 19 May 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:

creativecoding, on 14 May 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

The police are the largest street gang in America.

Kid, you really need to grow the f*uck up. Stop regurgitating this "down with the man" b.s. you think is cool because the older teens on the C.W. network tell you it is.

How about if you ride along in South Central LA, or slums of Chicago for a week? Get shot at for making a traffic stop... Answer a domestic dispute and get stabbed for trying to keep a man from beating his wife...

Are there some bad apples out there? Yes. And they are the ones that get the press because it sells papers and gets high TV ratings. For every bad incident there are 10,000 acts of good and bravery. Just showing up for work carrying nothing but a 9mm when you know the gang members are carrying illegal full-auto uzi's is an level of bravery I doubt you even grasp let alone possess.

2% of anything is crap. Police. Cars off the assembly line. Meals in a restaurant, Software developers. But those are the ones everyone talk about incessantly, ruining the reputation of an entire brand. How would you like it if the entire programming industry was judged by the lazy shits that post 90% of the questions here? Would you appreciate hearing:

Quote

You're a software developer: That makes you a lazy, good for nothing, piece of shit that is only looking to scam people out of their credit card data, write viruses to destroy people's computer and steal their information and try to make a living by copy/pasting other people's work and claiming it as your own. You're blight on society.

I'll modify a my statement for you. There are too many police out there who behave like they're in a street gang.

You hear about Kelly Thomas? He was a homeless schizophrenic. Police were responding to a call saying someone was vandalizing cars and they found him. From what the cops say, he was resisting arrest and so backup was called. After tazing him, they beat him. You can hear him scream out for his dad. Lucky, there were a few cameras pointed towards them. The Orange County Attorney used this and other evidence to show that Kelly Thomas was compliant with Officer Ramos. In fact, Ramos put on some gloves and said "Now see my fist? They're getting ready to fuck you up". Thomas begged for his life and then was beaten to death by Ramos and 6 other cops. Only two of those cops were charged.

Now - That is an example of a few bad apples. But then a Facebook page called Big City Cops (with a little under 10,000 likes) posted a note wanting fellow people and cops to donate money to help bail him out. Big City Cops has this as their profile picture:


That's, oh, I don't know... A little bit on the "gang" side? Not something police should sport...? The latin translates to "Let them hate so long as they fear", which is not what cops should be saying. In fact that sounds a lot like something a gang would say. It should be saying something like, oh I don't know, "protect and server"?

Well, the note was posted by non other than Officer Ramos' fellow policeman, Benjamin Lira from the same district. And it was a bail of one million dollars. Do you know how much cops makes? Definitely not anywhere near that money. Meaning a lot of people, many of whom are cops, had to donate for them to reach their goal. So that means all of the people who donated don't know the full story and donated based on the note (oh, he couldn't possibly murder anyone! He has kids! Donate now!), or they're ignorant and refuse to believe anything else, or they know exactly what happens and still think he's the type of person who shouldn't be in a jail cell.


So yeah, I could understand how there's a few bad cops. And I'm not a "fuck the police" type person, sorry if my previous posts made it look that way. I have lots of respect for the police and I know a couple of policeman myself who are some of the nicest people I know. But when a group of cops murder someone and their district backs them up by bailing out the top offender, that is completely unacceptable.

[ishkabible]

Quote

The idea is to try to cut down the temptation to intimated those that make the laws. It's kind of common sense if you stop and think, rather than look for a reason to protest.

shouldn't that be true for everyone? the temptation to intimidate ANYONE should be cut down. if it helps officials from being murdered then it would help citizens too. there is nothing to gain by having a contrast of penalty for murdering 1 person but not the other.

also, intimidation is a separate crime. if there is more at stack then the penalty of intimidation goes up. that's why charges like intimidation of a witness and intimidation of an official have higher penalties.

justifying inequality by saying that it protects us without exploring proper solutions is EXACTLY the kind of bullshit our government feeds us on a daily basis.

Quote

Simple economics suggests that the penalty for attacking or killing a police officer on duty should be higher than generic assault or murder.

how so? I'm actually interested in this. what is there to gain(for the public that is) from having a contrast of penalty?

Quote

those that make the laws

nope, also those who interpret(judicial), and those who inforce(executive) but this is just me being a dick now; I knew what I meant

This post has been edited by ishkabible: 19 May 2012 - 10:55 AM

[tlhIn`toq]

Quote

And it was a bail of one million dollars. Do you know how much cops makes?

That doesn't mean someone wrote a check for a million dollars to get him out. That means a bail bondsmen wrote a promissory note (his bond) to pay a million dollars if the suspect fled and didn't return for trial. The bail-bondsman usually takes a fee of 10% of the bail. Sometimes more, sometimes less depending on the flight risk of the suspect. A cop is not a high flight risk. Which means the million dollar bail really only cost $100,000 or less. That is the type of thing all those union dues pay for. If if the union didn't pay it then all it took was for 1,000 cops to pony up $100 each. Not really breaking the bank for any one person.

Quote

Big City Cops has this as their profile picture:

That's, oh, I don't know... A little bit on the "gang" side?

Again, grow up and get out of your My Little Pony world. Have you seen most of the patches from the US Military? You have no frame of reference for things in the grown up world and probably should just sit back and listen to the adults talk.



I don't think "Death from Above" is exactly subtle. Nor is "Kill them all, let god sort them out" or "Join the Army. See the World. Travel to exotic lands, meet interesting people: And kill them"


The mottos of the original colonies were just as strong when you adjust for the civility of the time period: A poisonous snake that says "Don't Tread on Me" is a pretty blunt threat.

Quote

The latin translates to "Let them hate so long as they fear",

I'm good with that being the new motto of America. Maybe if the fear we used to carry was still around a few years back there wouldn't have been a 9-11 tragedy.

With reasonable people you can use reason and respect. With the rest fear & strength is all you have left. Its sad but true.