[macosxnerd101]

So on the gun ownership point, I think it's safe to conclude that putting oneself in a situation where the gun may be necessary for protection after being told not to do so by the police is irresponsible gun ownership. That's the point I was trying to make. Not taking sides on the larger gun rights debate.

[atraub]

Ahhh, you're discussing responsible gun ownership and I've been referring to responsible gun "handling"

This post has been edited by atraub: 15 July 2013 - 11:32 PM

[farrell2k]

atraub, on 16 July 2013 - 04:29 AM, said:

jon.kiparsky It would be nice if you could maintain some semblance of respect towards the people who disagree with you. Both you and farrell2k are quick to make personal attacks, yet I have chosen not to retaliate to any of them. The worst I've done is pointed out that your badgering attitude is childish.

I don't remember attacking anyone. I do rmember pointing out that if you, and when I say *you*, I mean gun carriers in general, are so paranoid and fearful of the outside world that you need a loaded gun strapped to your hip 24/7, you have mental issues, likely paranoid personality disorder. Look it up. It's quite serious. The first step is admitting that you have a problem, an irrational fear of the world around you.

[atraub]

I don't carry a loaded weapon at all times, but even if I did, that would not constitute mental illness.

[Bort]

jon.kiparsky, on 16 July 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

atraub, on 15 July 2013 - 08:20 PM, said:

There's nothing wrong with carrying a gun.

There's definitely something wrong with carrying a gun when you're a volunteer vigilante.

<Snip>

Now what does this do for the gun nuts and their "guns don't kill people" mantra? I think now it goes "guns don't kill people, people kill people. And hey, we're cool with that."

He was an American wannabe vigilante cop, right? Of course he carried his gun everywhere he went. Given the high rate of gun crime in the US, that makes sense. By the sounds of it, he has been doing this for a while, so ask yourselves this: Why did the actual cops not stop him earlier? Why wait until some poor kid got shot?

[depricated]

The fact that he carried that gun is the sole reason why Trayvon Martin died. His decision to carry that gun killed a kid. You don't think that's irresponsible? 

The sole reason Martin died was because Martin was an asshole teenager who decided to tackle and pummel Zimmerman. You can deny that Martin struck first all you want, or that "25 blows" is unrealistic all you want, but you're being disingenuous. An ass beating feels a lot worse than it is usually, and my understanding is that he was estimating how many times he'd been hit in the head before retaliating, NOT how many times Martin had bashed his head into the concrete.

But that's convenient to overlook, so go ahead and do so since it would stop you from using that argument.

By suggesting that Martin did not attack, the alternative you seem to be implying is that George Zimmerman is secretly Tyler Durden and kicked the shit out of himself to fake the wounds. Wounds on Martin and Zimmerman are consistent with Zimmerman's story.

Quote

Now, there's no version of this story where Zimmerman doesn't start the fight - that's his story, that's the dispatcher's story, that's the only story there is. I take it even you have been paying enough attention to get that far, yes?

By your definition of "Start the fight" I would now be justified in attempting to murder you by bashing your head into the concrete over and over again, because you started this 'fight.'

Now Jonny, since you like to go for personal attacks, I'll use myself for example. One thing that was pounded into my head growing up was the difference between a conflict and a fight. I trained to disable attackers. Some of the techniques I learned were dangerous enough that a mistake could cripple someone for life. That was me at 13. What I learned is that so long as no physical attack has been thrown at me, we are not fighting. It would be unethical and immoral for me to initiate an attack, though reacting and preventing an initial attack once it has begun is not wrong. I sincerely doubt that Zimmerman was drawing the gun when Martin attacked him.

And note that even with that training, I still carry a loaded gun when I go through certain neighborhoods in Cincinnati and Detroit. Am I putting myself in a situation where it might be needed? Yes, yes I am. Am I doing so so that I wind up using it? No, I'm doing so because other forces direct me to those areas. I don't believe in victims - if I knowingly put myself into that position WITHOUT being prepared to defend myself, I'm an idiot not a victim.

Martin isn't a victim. He could have also made different decisions

Quote

jon.kiparsky It would be nice if you could maintain some semblance of respect towards the people who disagree with you. Both you and farrell2k are quick to make personal attacks, yet I have chosen not to retaliate to any of them. The worst I've done is pointed out that your badgering attitude is childish.

atraub, that's what makes the Nancy Grace crowd think they're winning. You're stupid for disagreeing with them, and oblivious because you think they're childish for it. Now they just condescend because you've 'proven' you don't know anything (i.e. you examine the evidence, weigh it morally and determine how ethical something is based on such consideration and not the words of some talking head)

[Switters]

farrell2k, on 15 July 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

Switters, on 16 July 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

farrell2k, on 15 July 2013 - 06:17 PM, said:

Anyone who believes that the wanna be cop with the gun was just minding his own business before he was "brutally attacked" has a fundamental disconnect with reality. It's clear that he was one of those gun-toting crazies who felt he could stalk, harass, and push around another "suspicious person" aka black person. It's beyond obvious that his story was completely made up. No one would walk away from 25 "slammings" of their head on concrete. Those wounds look like small guts one would get rolling around on a sidewalk, not having your head slammed against one.

This was a travesty of justice. This jury will go down in history as one of the worst, probably right behind The O.J. Simpson jury.

Respectfully disagree. I've served as a juror in a violent crime case (rape), although obviously it wasn't public to any extent like this case was.

Juror instructions, what is and is not allowed to be considered, and (honestly) juror bargaining / negotiation all play into how what seems like "obvious" evidence gets decided upon. The requirement for verdicts to be unanimous is also a huge component. If you are the lone hold-out vote because you think someone is / is not guilty, than you have to be strong enough in your conviction to keep 5 or 11 other people locked in a room, withstanding the peer pressure and tension. After 18 hours nobody on that jury had the conviction to hold out. If you strongly believed beyond all reasonable doubt that someone in your community was a murderer, would you seriously wave the white flag after a day and half?

I don't know what the hell you're talking about, dude.

The jury was a bunch of upper-middle class white Republican women. Martin got screwed and shot for being black.

Yeah so, that's not really a counter to what I said at all. It's more of a "I'm correct because I'm correct argument," so...yeah, I've got nothing else for you.

[Bort]

atraub, on 16 July 2013 - 09:19 AM, said:

I don't carry a loaded weapon at all times, but even if I did, that would not constitute mental illness.

Atraub, I beg to differ here. There are definitely times when a loaded firearm is excessive, or are you really saying that the person who feels they can't go shopping without their fully loaded and ready to go 9mm (or whatever) in their bag is really sane?

Edit: Farrell2k, you seem pretty convinced that this was all about racism. You may be right, you may not. But how do you know that he was shot because he was black, and how do you know that the jury were all white republican females that would be happy to see a black person shot as opposed to a white guy go to jail for shooting someone?

Isn't that just a little racist yourself?

This post has been edited by Bort: 16 July 2013 - 05:55 AM

[torind_2000]

Bort, on 16 July 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

Atraub, I beg to differ here. There are definitely times when a loaded firearm is excessive, or are you really saying that the person who feels they can't go shopping without their fully loaded and ready to go 9mm (or whatever) in their bag are really sane?

One:
It's not insane to carry a loaded firearm, not even when you go shopping.
If you have legally purchased the weapon and filled out all the required paperwork as well as gotten a license to carry appropriate to your locality, then it's a constitutionally guaranteed right.
I have plenty of friends that do, and none of them are mental.
Lumping all carrying gun owners into a single stereotype is misguided at best.
Side note: I do believe mental history should be checked for all prospective gun owners and their immediate families because there are nut-bags out there that unfortunately slip through the cracks.

Two:
The 911 operator didn't tell him to back off, all that was said was 'We don't need you to do that'. Cite
If GZ had a shred of common sense he would have stayed in his vehicle and waited for the cops to show up and none of this would have been necessary, but hind-sight is always 20/20

Three:
A jury of his peers found him not guilty. They were provided the evidence and witness testimony and came to a unanimous verdict.
Whether they were right or wrong is moot. It happened and he is now legally a free man that is getting his gun back.

So instead of all the bitching, and QQ'ing, and riots. Let's be productive and figure out how we can keep other kids from being killed WITHOUT affecting out constitutional rights.

[farrell2k]

Bort, on 16 July 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Edit: Farrell2k, you seem pretty convinced that this was all about racism. You may be right, you may not. But how do you know that he was shot because he was black, and how do you know that the jury were all white republican females that would be happy to see a black person shot as opposed to a white guy go to jail for shooting someone?

Isn't that just a little racist yourself?

Nope. It's an acknowledgement of reality. If Trayvon martin were Paul Martin, a white real estate broker, Zimmerman would be incarcerated as I type this.

This post has been edited by farrell2k: 16 July 2013 - 06:40 AM

[depricated]

farrell2k, on 16 July 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Bort, on 16 July 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Edit: Farrell2k, you seem pretty convinced that this was all about racism. You may be right, you may not. But how do you know that he was shot because he was black, and how do you know that the jury were all white republican females that would be happy to see a black person shot as opposed to a white guy go to jail for shooting someone?

Isn't that just a little racist yourself?

Nope. It's an acknowledgement of reality. If Trayvon martin were Paul Martin, a white real estate broker, Zimmerman would be incarcerated as I type this.

Wow, that's as racist as it comes.

[farrell2k]

depricated, on 16 July 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

farrell2k, on 16 July 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Bort, on 16 July 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Edit: Farrell2k, you seem pretty convinced that this was all about racism. You may be right, you may not. But how do you know that he was shot because he was black, and how do you know that the jury were all white republican females that would be happy to see a black person shot as opposed to a white guy go to jail for shooting someone?

Isn't that just a little racist yourself?

Nope. It's an acknowledgement of reality. If Trayvon martin were Paul Martin, a white real estate broker, Zimmerman would be incarcerated as I type this.

Wow, that's as racist as it comes.

I agree. The Zimmerman jury should be ashamed of itself.

[depricated]

farrell2k, on 16 July 2013 - 07:47 AM, said:

depricated, on 16 July 2013 - 01:43 PM, said:

farrell2k, on 16 July 2013 - 07:39 AM, said:

Bort, on 16 July 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

Edit: Farrell2k, you seem pretty convinced that this was all about racism. You may be right, you may not. But how do you know that he was shot because he was black, and how do you know that the jury were all white republican females that would be happy to see a black person shot as opposed to a white guy go to jail for shooting someone?

Isn't that just a little racist yourself?

Nope. It's an acknowledgement of reality. If Trayvon martin were Paul Martin, a white real estate broker, Zimmerman would be incarcerated as I type this.

Wow, that's as racist as it comes.

I agree. The Zimmerman jury should be ashamed of itself.

I mean you, assuming that because they're white they're racist.

[h4nnib4l]

I love how most of the people arguing the pro-gun side of this know fuck-all about guns outside the vacuum of forum-debate and maybe shooting a few cans. Wanna know how I know? Because this isn’t a pro-gun situation, this SOB just put people like me in the position to defend my beliefs, and fuck him for that. Zimmerman fucked up, and a kid is dead. None of the laws apply? Bullshit. One of the first things you learn in a CHL class (any of you pro-Zimmerman peeps have one?) is that you are now obligated to do EVERYTHING IN YOUR POWER TO AVOID ALTERCATION. That doesn’t mean run, and I don’t think you should have to. It doesn’t mean get hit, shot, or stabbed a bit before you draw, and I don’t believe you should have to. There isn’t a magical line, that’s why we have juries and trials and such, but Zimmerman left that line far, far behind when he harassed Martin. Some guy follows you through a neighborhood, and eventually gets out and accosts you: how the fuck do you think you’d react? Here’s the kicker: Martin was a kid. I’d be hard pressed not to break GZ’s nose too (unless I was carrying). Bringing pot into it? Really? Completely unrelated. And really guys, how the fuck do you think it went down? You think GZ got out of his car and said “Excuse me young man, but I have reasonable cause to believe that…”??? Fuck no it didn’t. GZ picked a fight, started losing, and then used his gun. UTTERLY DESPICABLE. I would be fucking ASHAMED if any of my students had done the same, and would have probably been willing to testify for the prosecution. Fuck George Zimmerman.

If you call the cops and say some guy is harrassing you, they'll likely tell you that unless he's done something, you're on your own (so to say that TM could have gotten assistance from the police is a bit silly). To restate something I already said - one of the first things you learn in a CHL course is that, by carrying, you are precluding yourself from the right to conduct yourself otherwise. You CANNOT INSTIGATE ALTERCATIONS. Plain and simple. To insinuate that, by following and harrassing Martin, Zimmerman was doing otherwise is to show an astounding lack of situational awareness.

Depricated, I think I remember your story about disarming some dude on your way to a Larp thingy. Your story makes me wonder if you've ever even been around a gun before. Personally, I call bullshit. I think you've seen too many movies, and maybe taken a martial arts class that gave you a false sense of badassery. I could be wrong, but whatever, please just stop acting like dealing with muzzle of a gun is easy, it's insulting to those of us who have.

Quote

Cops spend a lot of time getting trained to handle situations so that guns don't go off

Not to argue against your point jon, but I’m actually pretty disgusted with how LITTLE training cops get with their weapons. I can’t imagine carrying a weapon and being as poor of a shot. I say this to say that I think that, in order to carry a gun in public, you should have to show a hell of a lot more proficiency than is currently required in most places. If you really feel that you should be allowed to carry a gun on the off chance that you need one (as I do), then you should be willing to train.

This is an example of a pathetic prosecution absolutely failing at their job. Pretty sure my kids could have handled it better (I didn’t pay attention to the whole thing), but failing to show that Zimmerman fucked up here is amazing. I carry a gun, and I’ve been in plenty of fights (drunk asshole Marine for a few years), so I can picture how this went down, and I can’t come up with a scenario where GZ isn’t directly responsible for causing the situation that led to TM’s death. Yes, in the moment, GZ was defending himself, but it’s from an attack that he provoked. If there’s not a felony for that, then we need one. I believe in my right to carry a weapon, and I exercise it, but there is absolutely no room for anything like this.

farrell2k, on 15 July 2013 - 11:16 PM, said:

If you are the type of person who is so paranoid of others and fearful for your life that you have to actually carry a loaded weapon in public, you have mental issues. Likely Paranoid Personality Disorder, and that alone should bar you from even owning a gun.

Hey, it’s nice to have farrell2k back to make sweeping statements about the intelligence and mental state of everyone who disagrees with him again. Yay!

[ConciselyVerbose]

Quote

By suggesting that Martin did not attack, the alternative you seem to be implying is that George Zimmerman is secretly Tyler Durden and kicked the shit out of himself to fake the wounds. Wounds on Martin and Zimmerman are consistent with Zimmerman's story.

Or Zimmerman started the fight, got his ass beat, and shot someone.