How long does it take to become a Junior Developer?

  • (4 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4

55 Replies - 5269 Views - Last Post: 17 December 2018 - 02:12 PM

#16 KYA   User is offline

  • Wubba lubba dub dub!
  • member icon

Reputation: 3202
  • View blog
  • Posts: 19,235
  • Joined: 14-September 07

Re: How long does it take to become a Junior Developer?

Posted 21 November 2013 - 12:05 PM

View Postsupersloth, on 21 November 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

to be fair i assume you mean your job after graduating college with a CS degree? my job was at 18 with a HS diploma.


Ah yes sorry, I misread what we were talking about.


----


Within the next decade we should see the college degree bubble burst. The cost is grossly out tipping the benefits. For example, I'm doing my grad degree part time and each semester they raise the tuition 5% because they can; they know that the vast majority of people doing them are having their employers pay for it which everyone does so they can put people into higher labor categories for billing.

But now most contracts are getting rid of the Master's degree = 2 years of experience, so I expect this to crash hard.
Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#17 Apokio   User is offline

  • D.I.C Addict

Reputation: 135
  • View blog
  • Posts: 511
  • Joined: 14-August 09

Re: How long does it take to become a Junior Developer?

Posted 21 November 2013 - 12:13 PM

I am trying to tell both my brother-in-laws the same thing. Neither of them are the going to school type. They both work for this tree trimming service where they are basically contract and some weeks they don't even work. There is a Crane company moving into the area who has a lot of contracts with TxDOT and I looked up how much crane operators make and it can get up in the $30 - $40 an hour range. I have a friends that are plumbers that make 60k+ a year. Finding a job that requires some specialized skill that takes a little time and training to learn is the key to making good money.
Was This Post Helpful? 2
  • +
  • -

#18 lordofduct   User is offline

  • I'm a cheeseburger
  • member icon


Reputation: 2668
  • View blog
  • Posts: 4,786
  • Joined: 24-September 10

Re: How long does it take to become a Junior Developer?

Posted 21 November 2013 - 12:21 PM

View PostCraig328, on 21 November 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

So, this conversation kinda sorta touches on one I had with my kids in the car just a few days ago (they're 13 and 11 respectively). The conversation turned to grades and then college and then what to do once they're grown and out on their own. I had related my almost haphazard path from school to one industry then to being a developer and then a small business contractor.

Anyway, along the way I mention how unfortunate it is that because of the ridiculous cost of a college education these days that if either one of them want to pursue a degree something ridiculous (I think I mentioned a major in French post-impressionist art) that they'll be discovering the wide and wonderful world of borrowing...because the Mrs and I won't be ponying up tens of thousands for that crap. The daughter (who wants to be a nurse and knows 2 such so her ideal is something she's actually aware of) trying to make fun of her little brother pipes up and says "haha Garrett...you're going to be a mechanic". I then mentioned that it's telling how she decided to pick on "mechanic" as though it were somehow a less than desirable job and she came back with that they're not paid and the work is dirty.

I then related what I could recall from reading the following article about an interview/exchange Mike Rowe (the guy from Dirty Jobs) had with some young woman. That article is here and something like it ought to be required reading amongst young folk today. It came to mind when Tifa mentioned that she's already getting $15/hr for pulling wire and it prompted my recollection asking my son to do me a favor when we got home.

I asked him to do two things: get on the computer and look up what a "machinist" is...and then look around for jobs for machinists and see how much they make. He was fairly shocked with what he discovered about both.

If you're under 25 and reading this post, in all seriousness, read the link above. Our society is so heavily tilted towards "everyone-needs-a-college-degree" these days that the degrees themselves are no longer special like they used to be. Our economic system has one long standing rule: expense is determined by demand for an item versus its supply. There are virtually no young people going into skilled trades anymore and our existing workforce is retiring in droves. Beginning machinists start around $20/hr and if they get into specialized work, have been known to pull down $100K/yr. Electrician apprentices (outside workers...think linemen and guys running line from grid to building) make close to $40K their first year. Apprentices. Journeymen (the title once your apprenticeship is complete) routinely make $45-$50/hr.

In other words Tifa...keep pulling wire.


I have had these conversations with friends and family and the sort.

I always call it my "who's going to take out the garbage" talk, because that's my analogy I start off with. SOMEONE has to take out the garbage.

It's my stance for why college degrees aren't actually for everyone and some people do better in skilled labor and even medial labor.

It's my stance for why you don't look down on people in these roles. With out them you don't have roads, electricity, or your damn garbage carted away.

It's my stance for why a living wage is important for these fields and "get an education so you don't have to work that job" isn't a reasonable response IMO either.

SOMEONE has to take out the garbage.

This post has been edited by lordofduct: 21 November 2013 - 12:28 PM

Was This Post Helpful? 1
  • +
  • -

#19 Craig328   User is offline

  • I make this look good
  • member icon

Reputation: 2041
  • View blog
  • Posts: 3,643
  • Joined: 13-January 08

Re: How long does it take to become a Junior Developer?

Posted 21 November 2013 - 12:22 PM

What's more, the gross trend will one day have to be in a direction that favors that kind of work. Being a veteran with much experience at that point will be gold. Somewhere along the way, we're going to need to start addressing our collapsing infrastructure. Those won't be jobs that you can head down to the day labor pool (or usually the nearest unoccupied parking lot adjacent to the local Home Depot) and pick up a few warm bodies to get the job done. H1-B doesn't cover skilled labor like this so it's not like we'll be able to tap an immigrant worker market.

No, as of now, it has to be American workers with apprenticeships. This is one area I believe unions still serve a vital purpose: in the training and certifying of skilled workers. I know the IBEW folk I used to work with way back in the day had apprenticeship programs and I hear tell these days that they can't even scrape up enough interested applicants. The training is usually free or very low cost, they pay you as you work and you learn a valuable trade in the bargain.

I guess it's because there isn't enough demand for such yet that they can have training programs where they jack the tuition rate 7-8% year over year.
Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#20 lordofduct   User is offline

  • I'm a cheeseburger
  • member icon


Reputation: 2668
  • View blog
  • Posts: 4,786
  • Joined: 24-September 10

Re: How long does it take to become a Junior Developer?

Posted 21 November 2013 - 12:31 PM

*
POPULAR

Also related to the article you posted, which I really like.

My buddy and his family are from Cuba. His dad, who barely speaks English and calls me 'Ubuntu' because I work on his computer for him. His dad goes on about all his friends and the sort back in Cuba, and how the government was all about education and put everyone through college. And what happened in his home town was that everyone had a degree in this that or the other... but no one wanted to go work in the field, because they had a degree in this that or the other.

So no one worked in the field.

And no one took out the garbage.




I tried skilled labor myself. I grew up in a family of it. I know how to electric work, plumbing, and truck driving (which comes with a bit of mechanic knowledge, we hauled cars). I loved it, and the money is great. I just quickly learned I wasn't built for it. Being the runt in my family with all the brains, I was meant for a brainy job. But I'd never look down on that work... that shit is HARD, and the knowledge I gained from it is immense. I'm flabberghasted that most of my friends now a days don't even know how often their oil is suppposed to be changed, let alone know how to change it themselves. And the looks on their faces when I remodeled my house with my brother... priceless.
Was This Post Helpful? 5
  • +
  • -

#21 h4nnib4l   User is online

  • The Noid
  • member icon

Reputation: 1371
  • View blog
  • Posts: 1,952
  • Joined: 24-August 11

Re: How long does it take to become a Junior Developer?

Posted 21 November 2013 - 12:33 PM

View Postsupersloth, on 21 November 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

oh, also fill us in on the reaction when your daughter learns how dirty a job being a nurse is.


I'd take motor oil and grease over human shit, vomit and blood any day of the week. I worked as a phlebotomist for a few years in college, and I will never miss the smell, catching every fucking virus that makes the rounds, and always smelling like a hospital. I wouldn't go back to a hospital for $200k a year.
Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#22 Craig328   User is offline

  • I make this look good
  • member icon

Reputation: 2041
  • View blog
  • Posts: 3,643
  • Joined: 13-January 08

Re: How long does it take to become a Junior Developer?

Posted 21 November 2013 - 12:40 PM

Yeah, growing up neither of my folks had a college degree (I was the first in my Dad's family to get one) and they ran a summer camp. They converted and expanded a cabin at one end of the property into our house. My pop made damn sure I was with him while he built 2 cabins, a barn and a laundry house. I help him repair all kinds of shit. I learned carpentry, plumbing, electrical and all kinds of odds and ends. He helped me renovate our house in Tampa. Over the years I was there I figure we replaced prolly half that house project by project.

His point while we would be doing something like soldering a new hot water line under the house to the sink we were moving from one side of the kitchen to the other was "think how much you'd have to pay a man to come do this work". I don't know that I ever got a good estimate on what that would have cost but I do know what it cost me to hire a licensed electrician to come out and replace knob and tube wiring in my attic prior to us selling that house.

That stung.
Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#23 h4nnib4l   User is online

  • The Noid
  • member icon

Reputation: 1371
  • View blog
  • Posts: 1,952
  • Joined: 24-August 11

Re: How long does it take to become a Junior Developer?

Posted 21 November 2013 - 12:41 PM

It really amazes me how content people are with knowing how to do so little for themselves. There's a difference between using the services of someone who does something for a living and having to use somebody else to do it, but that difference seems to be lost. Sure, I'll let a mechanic work on my car, because I drive an Altima and just looking at the engine makes me claustrophobic, but it would really bother me to bo so heavily reliant on something and not having the faintest clue how it works and how to do basic maintenance and repairs for myself.
Was This Post Helpful? 2
  • +
  • -

#24 AnalyticLunatic   User is offline

  • D.I.C Lover

Reputation: 239
  • View blog
  • Posts: 1,073
  • Joined: 25-June 12

Re: How long does it take to become a Junior Developer?

Posted 21 November 2013 - 03:13 PM

View PostCraig328, on 21 November 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

...I then related what I could recall from reading the following article about an interview/exchange Mike Rowe (the guy from Dirty Jobs) had with some young woman. That article is here and something like it ought to be required reading amongst young folk today...


Mike Rowe is an amazing individual. It was a real treat to have him as the SkillsUSA Opening Ceremony Speaker at our National Leadership & Skills Conference (NLSC) this year. Link:



For anyone interested in learning more about SkillsUSA, click here.

View Postlordofduct, on 21 November 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

View PostCraig328, on 21 November 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

snip


I have had these conversations with friends and family and the sort.

It's my stance for why you don't look down on people in these roles. With out them you don't have roads, electricity, or your damn garbage carted away.

It's my stance for why a living wage is important for these fields and "get an education so you don't have to work that job" isn't a reasonable response IMO either.

SOMEONE has to take out the garbage.


You've got what I would call some respectable opinions great lord duct. That's one of the reasons I loved being so active in SkillsUSA; all the diversity. No matter what the field, SkillsUSA is there to help students learn how to become leaders at their positions. Skill Competitions (the favorite of many members) include everything from Graphic Design, Nursing, Construction, Auto Body, Cooking, and many more.

It is my opinion that no job should be looked down upon. If you are working hard, and doing your best, what's not to respect about that? Whether you're a surgeon or some random taking my order at McDonald's, I try to show you the respect you deserve. It's your job, you're working it, you're earning that paycheck.

My Story (was bored):

Spoiler

Was This Post Helpful? 1
  • +
  • -

#25 BetaWar   User is offline

  • #include "soul.h"
  • member icon

Reputation: 1606
  • View blog
  • Posts: 8,448
  • Joined: 07-September 06

Re: How long does it take to become a Junior Developer?

Posted 21 November 2013 - 04:34 PM

As an undergrad web developer I made $10/hour.
As an undergrad TA (called a learning assistant) I made $15/hour.
As an intern in an enterprise level storage company I made $27/hour.
Now that I have been hired on full-time, I make more.

Why is this interesting? Because, by the time I got that web development gig, I had 5 years of web development experience under my belt. Granted, it was working for a non-profit (meaning zero pay) and doing volunteer sites, but I still count it.

What is more interesting? When I got the enterprise level storage internship I had taken 2 semesters of lower-level programming (C/kernel development) and spent a number of years programming on my own. It turned out that they were more interested in my personal projects, and seeing that I had passion and fit the corporate culture than having knowledge of storage systems (of which I only knew the RAID basics at the time).
Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#26 NeoTifa   User is online

  • NeoTifa Codebreaker, the Scourge of Devtester
  • member icon





Reputation: 4470
  • View blog
  • Posts: 19,010
  • Joined: 24-September 08

Re: How long does it take to become a Junior Developer?

Posted 21 November 2013 - 05:37 PM

*
POPULAR

I have a little bit to add about almost every post, so bear with me.

I got my job as a building controls automation technician after getting laid off from my engineering intern job at the military base. I was doing 2-3 min wage jobs, still lost my apartment, racked up $15k debt, etc. Basically, for 6 months, I was rock bottom. An email came from LinkedIn, saying I had a PM from the recruiter of my company. After 3 interviews, I got the phone call that I got the job. Sure, I was a diversity hire (I found that out like 2 months in, only hired because the black guy quit :/), but I got a job starting out at $14/hr. I was ecstatic, considering even at the base after 3 years I only made $13, and was making min wage for 6 months prior. Normally, for my job, it's like $12ish starting out with no knowledge, but since I was, at the time, going to school for computer engineering - robotics controls focus, I came in at $14 since it was relevant. I think the cap for a technician is $20-$25/hr, unless you move up to managing or something. Considering my job technically has no apprenticeship and therefore is purely on-the-job training, it's not a bad gig, but we also have kick ass bennies, like a SuperFleet card, car/truck and phone stipend, 401k matching, profit sharing, etc. it amounts to so much more. Not to mention the family friendly, lenient atmosphere. And depending on where we work, since we're non-union, we can make $44/hr. We're seriously getting a lot of work at OSU, which is almost all prevailing wage. All I have to do is pull wire, maybe run some conduit (usually have certain guys for that), hook up devices to VAV boxes and air handlers, so such. Physical with carrying, but it's not digging ditches, either. DAMNED GOOD JOB! So happy.

My degree is something I started and I want to finish it. I've since accidentally switched to software engineering when I transferred, which I'm not too butthurt about (seriously, fuck physics). Will my degree get me a better job? Maybe. But I make decent money now, with awesome bennies, and cowokers and bosses I actually LIKE for once (bar 2 guys), so why leave? Even if I left my company, and didn't have a degree, I'd be set. Pretty much any company will hire me because I'm like 1 of 10-20 female construction workers in the C-Bus area, so I'd have no problem in the job market. If I get a job, like electrician, plumber, or carpenter, I get sent to school, usually on the companies dime or at serious discount, to learn my trade for 3-5 years, then I'll be a Journeyman. Depending on the company, it's about $13-$15 for apprentice, $25-$30 for Journeyman. If I get into a unionized job, I could make $30-45 an hour. Serious fucking gravy money, man. Pretty much, even without my degree (mainly because of my particular set of genitals), I'm set for life. I just gotta deal with sexual harassment and sexism on a regular basis, which I've pretty much grown leather skin, so it doesn't bother me as much anymore. I'm mainly getting my degree because I want to be Dr. NeoTifa one day. :3 If I could work for an awesome company, for more pay, doing software stuff (I do enjoy coding as much as I enjoy working with my hands), then good, I'll switch, but it's all good in da hood atm. I honestly used to look down on construction, and be an elitist faggot because I was going college, but I can honestly say I love my work. Free built in workout, get to work with my hands (which feels empowering btw), and it's an awesome company and relatively safe.

TL;DR construction: don't knock it until you try it.
Was This Post Helpful? 5
  • +
  • -

#27 vincentbelkin   User is offline

  • New D.I.C Head

Reputation: 0
  • View blog
  • Posts: 4
  • Joined: 30-October 13

Re: How long does it take to become a Junior Developer?

Posted 21 November 2013 - 05:47 PM

View PostDogstopper, on 19 November 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

I'm making $17 an hour as an intern, but my company also pays at the low end for software development. I would say your best hope of landing one of these jobs is to do as much work as you can and have a portfolio. I don't have one, but I have job experience in my field (I got lucky in high school to land some nice jobs). For you though, I think the ability to demonstrate your knowledge will go a long way.

Damn you're lucky. I'm a sophomore in college and my first internship will be on March (aside from the internship that is required at the university). I told my mum that its okay if I don't have a pay; lucky that I'm gonna have one as well.
Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#28 Lemur   User is offline

  • Pragmatism over Dogma
  • member icon


Reputation: 1453
  • View blog
  • Posts: 3,633
  • Joined: 28-November 09

Re: How long does it take to become a Junior Developer?

Posted 21 November 2013 - 06:50 PM

I started out freelancing in High School, especially making programs for math classes. Went to a few state level and national level competitions, and interned at the school as a Web Designer.

After Highschool I started a CS Degree, and did Tech Repair and System Administration. My Dad was a landlord, and had multiple networks to manage, so I took care of it and automated a lot of work for it, as well as web servers and nas drives. That was far more of the experimentation time in those first few years of College. Don't knock side projects, they taught me a ton about BSD and Unix systems.

About a year before I graduated I was offered a part-time job at a local ISP, making $12.50/hr. This is where I really picked up Ruby and took off into automation framework creation and some heavy System Admin work. About a year into it I was promoted to full time, and bumped to $22.50/hr. This was definitely a System Administration job, but I decided I loved writing the software far more than I loved herding Unix Boxen.

Three months ago I was offered a position as a Software Engineer, just shy of a year out of College. It was working in Rails, and to be fair I'd only known Rails for all of a few months at that point (* By know, I mean actually MAKE something non-trivial in it.) The large base in Unix and Ruby (not rails) is what saved me there. Combined with being able to hold a conversation about any number of programming languages and network stacks and I got in.

About me at the time of that interview: I had obsessively studied programming manuals for an entire year, learning everything I could about Ruby. I was pretty well a walking dictionary for it. There were multiple examples of my System Administration chops all over the net. I'd been contributing some open source, and made a huge presence on LinkedIn that got about 3-5 calls a week from recruiters. I'd also been skiffed on multiple interviews before getting to where I was.

I'll tell you that it takes a long long time to get a job, even if you are clever. Most Junior spots wanted me to have 3-5 years experience which was ludicrous by what a Junior should be. It's discouraging, it sucks, and you'll feel like you don't know anything. Keep trying, and keep notes of exactly what you don't know on interviews. I probably had every large company on the west coast call me, but I never really got past a second round. Man does that do wonders for your confidence.

Just keep plugging away, and eventually it'll all come together.
Was This Post Helpful? 1
  • +
  • -

#29 Dogstopper   User is offline

  • The Ninjaducky
  • member icon

Reputation: 2972
  • View blog
  • Posts: 11,223
  • Joined: 15-July 08

Re: How long does it take to become a Junior Developer?

Posted 21 November 2013 - 07:31 PM

View Postvincentbelkin, on 21 November 2013 - 06:47 PM, said:

View PostDogstopper, on 19 November 2013 - 10:08 PM, said:

I'm making $17 an hour as an intern, but my company also pays at the low end for software development. I would say your best hope of landing one of these jobs is to do as much work as you can and have a portfolio. I don't have one, but I have job experience in my field (I got lucky in high school to land some nice jobs). For you though, I think the ability to demonstrate your knowledge will go a long way.

Damn you're lucky. I'm a sophomore in college and my first internship will be on March (aside from the internship that is required at the university). I told my mum that its okay if I don't have a pay; lucky that I'm gonna have one as well.


I would never work for free unless I seriously had no other shot. If I was ever in that boat, I'd do personal projects galore (fill a portfolio) or do freelance work. In either case, you're increasing your chance to get work. Most people at my university said I was crazy as a CS major to take a job that paid as little as mine ($17). The average pay for sophomore interns in CS at my school is like $25 an hour.

Also, Dr. Tifa has quite a ring to it Neo; keep it up! Also, we're probably getting Ph.D.'s in the same field as it turns out.
Was This Post Helpful? 1
  • +
  • -

#30 NeoTifa   User is online

  • NeoTifa Codebreaker, the Scourge of Devtester
  • member icon





Reputation: 4470
  • View blog
  • Posts: 19,010
  • Joined: 24-September 08

Re: How long does it take to become a Junior Developer?

Posted 21 November 2013 - 08:04 PM

Whoo artificial intelligence!
Was This Post Helpful? 1
  • +
  • -

  • (4 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4