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#1 lamentofking   User is offline

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Application Development vs Software Development

Posted 29 October 2014 - 08:52 AM

Hello,

I was wondering the difference between Application Development and Software Development as a career. For either one, what are the types of projects I would be taking on? I've become aware that the programs done in an undergrad CS program don't even compare to real-world tasks.
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#2 modi123_1   User is online

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Re: Application Development vs Software Development

Posted 29 October 2014 - 09:13 AM

Typically application and software are synonymous. Though an application would lend a bit more of a slant towards a desktop centric view.

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For either one, what are the types of projects I would be taking on?

There are no set project lists or corals in the business world.

Quote

I've become aware that the programs done in an undergrad CS program don't even compare to real-world tasks.

Well, yeah. Was this not a given? Finite time, scope, etc. At best towards the end we had some large group projects that game a framework of an end to end project dev, but small structured grading events are not quite like sweeping enterprise architecture.
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#3 lamentofking   User is offline

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Re: Application Development vs Software Development

Posted 29 October 2014 - 10:21 AM

Well if the school tasks don't help you with real-world tasks then what kinds of tasks will? I mean there's got to be a way for people looking to become developers to practice certain skill-level tasks to have enough experience to start out as an entry-level developer at least.
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#4 modi123_1   User is online

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Re: Application Development vs Software Development

Posted 29 October 2014 - 10:24 AM

No.. they did help, but - as I said - they are not exact mirrors of the business world.

If you want to practice then look at the project lists and design/execute one of those projects. Maybe even hire a hobo, give him a key to your joint, and instruct him to barge in (at random intervals) yelling for changes, throw things around, and leave as suddenly as he came in. Have him rewrite your schedule for you, and change it as needed.


If you need some sort of benchmark, have you looked at doing certs?
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#5 tlhIn`toq   User is offline

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Re: Application Development vs Software Development

Posted 29 October 2014 - 10:33 AM

View Postlamentofking, on 29 October 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

Well if the school tasks don't help you with real-world tasks then what kinds of tasks will? I mean there's got to be a way for people looking to become developers to practice certain skill-level tasks to have enough experience to start out as an entry-level developer at least.


I'm sure you've heard me rant on this before but I don't mind doing it again.

Colleges aren't in the business of making you ready to get/do/keep a job. If someone told you they were, they lied.

Colleges are in the business of selling you course credits; that's their revenue stream. If they can take the same lessons from a couple $40 "Learn C# in 30 days" books, and turn it into a 4 year program they make money. Its in their best interest to SLOW DOWN your education so as to turn 3 months of learning into 4 years of classes to SELL you.

Next: Most of these courses do the same thing they've been doing for 20 years. By the end of the 2nd year you'll still be making console applications. Have you used a console application in the last decade? Me neither. Then you'll move up to basic WinForms applications that really aren't well designed and would never be architected in a manner similar to what the university program makes you do.

Meanwhile: In the real world desktop applications are based on WPF/XAML/MVVM and Web Api/Web App development. Look at what you really do with your own computer and smart phone: Everything is data-centric and provided to you from a web service. Now go find a course actually teaching you that skill: A skill employers are LOOKING and PAYING for. Go on, I dare you.
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#6 modi123_1   User is online

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Re: Application Development vs Software Development

Posted 29 October 2014 - 11:21 AM

I will agree to a point. Colleges are not trade schools that much is true. On the other hand they focus down on narrowed topics, highlight important comp sci features in a controlled and managed environment, architecture, and provide a large breadth of information on the comp sci culture. If you don't want to be a code jockey then there are alternatives.. networking, db, info assurance, and so on. A degree gets you that introduction on what is out there for you to do. Lord knows we have hit many messages here about "erh mah gerb.. what do I do? Someone tell me what career to go to, what to learn, and how to learn it!".

By the way, console applications are great to remove the clutter of a UI and events. They help hammer home OOP principals. In all of my jobs non-ui apps are common. They help shuffle data between disparate systems, update databases, create email notifications, etc.
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#7 astonecipher   User is offline

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Re: Application Development vs Software Development

Posted 29 October 2014 - 11:41 AM

View Postlamentofking, on 29 October 2014 - 11:52 AM, said:

Application Development and Software Development as a career.


Honestly, forget the differences and comparisons. Unless you are starting your own company (which brings it's own problems), you will be hired because you know how to program in xyz or can think logically, or some other reason. You will be exposed to several different things unless you are pigeon holed early. There is not a whole lot of difference between web, desktop, server, and mobile development (meaning, if you can do one you likely know enough to figure out how to do the others)... They can give whatever title they want, what you will be doing can run the gamut.
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#8 lamentofking   User is offline

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Re: Application Development vs Software Development

Posted 29 October 2014 - 12:52 PM

Well all of this is helpful. How would projects be distributed though? Does every team work on every project together or are there "mini" teams that the boss just distributes projects to equally? I know Developers work on a team (doesn't make sense to have just one developer for your whole company) but I just didn't know how often they receive actual projects to do and if there's the possibility of overlapping deadlines.
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#9 modi123_1   User is online

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Re: Application Development vs Software Development

Posted 29 October 2014 - 12:56 PM

Quote

How would projects be distributed though? Does every team work on every project together or are there "mini" teams that the boss just distributes projects to equally? I

That depends on the work place. Some group work. some single. Typically bosses are scheduling the work for you.

Quote

if there's the possibility of overlapping deadlines.

Regardless of the industry any real world business work overlaps at some point.
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#10 axel1994   User is offline

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Re: Application Development vs Software Development

Posted 29 October 2014 - 03:05 PM

View PosttlhIn`toq, on 29 October 2014 - 05:33 PM, said:

View Postlamentofking, on 29 October 2014 - 11:21 AM, said:

Well if the school tasks don't help you with real-world tasks then what kinds of tasks will? I mean there's got to be a way for people looking to become developers to practice certain skill-level tasks to have enough experience to start out as an entry-level developer at least.


I'm sure you've heard me rant on this before but I don't mind doing it again.

Colleges aren't in the business of making you ready to get/do/keep a job. If someone told you they were, they lied.

Colleges are in the business of selling you course credits; that's their revenue stream. If they can take the same lessons from a couple $40 "Learn C# in 30 days" books, and turn it into a 4 year program they make money. Its in their best interest to SLOW DOWN your education so as to turn 3 months of learning into 4 years of classes to SELL you.

Next: Most of these courses do the same thing they've been doing for 20 years. By the end of the 2nd year you'll still be making console applications. Have you used a console application in the last decade? Me neither. Then you'll move up to basic WinForms applications that really aren't well designed and would never be architected in a manner similar to what the university program makes you do.

Meanwhile: In the real world desktop applications are based on WPF/XAML/MVVM and Web Api/Web App development. Look at what you really do with your own computer and smart phone: Everything is data-centric and provided to you from a web service. Now go find a course actually teaching you that skill: A skill employers are LOOKING and PAYING for. Go on, I dare you.


We dont all live in the US.
Dont generalise a for-profit college with other education systems.

I live in Belgium. University is pretty cheap here. (around 600 euros a year)
And depending on the degree, some degrees are focused on getting you a job.

Not all higher education is evil.

Universities and colleges here do try to get you a job. They organize special job markets for students and companies. Most computer science students that are about to get their master degree already have jobs in the industry.
In belgium their are academic computer science bachelor degrees, and professional cs bachelor degrees. A professional bachelor is 3 years and gets you ready to work. The academic degree is university level (very math oriented, and you're expected to do a master).
Right now, the colleges and unis here are at war with the government because the government is lowering their budget. (which would mean they need to ask more money from the students)

Private unis, and colleges do not really happen here.
Their education is regulated (ie checked if it's good enough).
The government cant say that they cant or need to teach something. But if a certain percentage of the students dont get a job, the government will try to find out why.

Nevertheless, it's still an education Higher education generally involves work towards a degree-level or foundation degree qualification.Foundation degrees are intended to give a basic knowledge in a subject to enable the holder to go on to employment or further study in that field.
So obviously an education won't teach everything.

Note: I do agree with you to some extent. But just like you can't say that all uni's/colleges are great, you can't say that all uni's/colleges are inherently evil.

This post has been edited by axel1994: 29 October 2014 - 03:24 PM

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#11 tlhIn`toq   User is offline

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Re: Application Development vs Software Development

Posted 30 October 2014 - 04:29 AM

View Postaxel1994, on 29 October 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

We dont don't all live in the US.

Correct. 8 billion people on Earth, 390 million in the USA. Clearly we don't all live in the USA. But this site does, as does an overwhelming majority of its active membership. So I don't feel its unreasonable to expect the content and comments of its members to come with an American slant. If I were on a Hindi site I would expect a Hindi slant and have to accept that I am viewing it from the outside and that not every comment applies to my part of the world.

View Postaxel1994, on 29 October 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

DontDon't generalise{...}

Generally I try not to. {laugh} But to some degree its not possible to talk in public to large numbers of people, about broad subjects that affect large numbers of people without doing so. Most people get that there are exceptions to every rule. I could talk about marriage without explicitly saying "two people" and it would be a generalization then someone would pipe up and say I'm bad for not taking into consideration all the multi-partner marriages in Saudi Arabia or Utah. So unless someone spends 80% of their comments trying to cover EVERY combination and permutation as well as trying to appease every faction, subgroup and exception the majority of casual conversations tend to presume some generalization.

View Postaxel1994, on 29 October 2014 - 04:05 PM, said:

you can't say that all uni's/colleges are inherently evil.

When you get some time, please re-read my post. I never said colleges were evil. I corrected the OP's misconception that they were in the business of making people job ready. If I said that Coca-Cola was not in the business of making electric fans that is not the same as saying they are bad, it would just be correcting a misunderstanding about what they do.
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#12 ybadragon   User is offline

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Re: Application Development vs Software Development

Posted 30 October 2014 - 06:11 AM

View Postlamentofking, on 29 October 2014 - 03:52 PM, said:

... I know Developers work on a team (doesn't make sense to have just one developer for your whole company) ...


This all depends on the company and what is needed. For instance my company is only ~50 people. I am the only developer on the IT team. You'd be surprised what one person is capable of doing. Currently I'm working on 5 projects, 2 of them on-going. In addition I also create small internal applications to automate parts of our employees workflows.
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