[ge∅]

jon.kiparsky, on 25 April 2015 - 05:02 AM, said:

ge∅, on 24 April 2015 - 07:53 PM, said:

Maybe, but he is right about one thing : it's the beauty of the web. Anybody can create a site. You don't need to be a professional. CSS, HTML, PHP are very simple to use (at least the most basic features), and it is by design.

I'm guessing you haven't worked on sites that are actually used by very many people, or that handle significant quantities of data, correct?

We were not talking about professional programming. In France there was something called Minitel before the Internet. It was like the Internet except for one thing : you couldn't make your own "site". There were professionals who made the content, and consumers who used it. What makes the Internet so magic is that anyone can make a website.

[no2pencil]

ge∅, on 27 April 2015 - 06:25 AM, said:

We were not talking about professional programming.

Correction, we are, you are not.

[ge∅]

JeremyBenson11, on 24 April 2015 - 09:27 PM, said:

Still, I love programming like it's my number one hobby. You don't have to be good to like something...

?

[BenignDesign]

[ge∅]

I don't get it. Someone is inspired by the topic and wants to talk about his personal experience. It's slightly different than your own, maybe slightly out of topic (but who cares : it's the Caffeine Lounge, I was a bit out of topic myself and nobody complained about it) and all of a sudden everyone is against him. Sometimes I think you don't know how to live and let live.

He's simply saying that if a dude wants to program a website, even if he's not a professional, he can do it, it can look fine and it can get popular and even profitable. And as a matter of fact, he is right and it's the beauty of the Internet : a lot of sites start with a bad design and/or a bad code, but with a great idea, become popular and are refined later (often by professionals).

Trust me, you don't want a world were websites are only made by companies in order to target customers. It would be the end of the Internet.

This post has been edited by ge∅: 27 April 2015 - 06:58 AM

[NeoTifa]

To be fair, I wasn't good at playing the trombone but I still liked playing it. Mostly just because I can make fart sounds with it. And, to play devil's advocate, I think what bro was saying is that code can be hacked together and you can make it work just fine, but as long as it looks pretty the customer doesn't even have to know. That's bad practice though. You should ALWAYS know how and why your code works, and make it robust. (I am guilty of it myself )

This post has been edited by NeoTifa: 27 April 2015 - 09:03 AM

[Gorian]

Well, that's a given, you are after all, a Swampie

[ArtificialSoldier]

Since I missed most of that discussion after my last post, I'll add my final thoughts.

Quote

He's simply saying that if a dude wants to program a website, even if he's not a professional, he can do it

That's not what he said, even if that's what he meant that's not what he said. It sounded like he was saying that the only thing that matters online is that something looks good, it doesn't need to work well (or even work at all, apparently). Even if that's not what he meant, that's what I hear when I see statements like these:

Quote

To me, it doesn't matter if my website runs like a Lamborghini... all that matters is that it looks like one.
... poorly programmed websites can work great ...
the hardest thing a php coder will make is a pagination script, lol.
it doesn't matter if the code underneath running it is sloppy.
with the help of a layout artist you could make the next facebook, even if the code is garbage

I take offense to several of those statements, because they make it sound like programming is some simplistic, borderline useless thing that you only need an online tutorial and a few hours to be able to do. It's great if he has hobbies, but there's no reason to confuse that with professional programming. You cannot create the next Facebook with a shitty programmer and someone who is good at layout. You actually do need good programmers to do something like that. And that line about the pagination script, this guy is going to assume that the most difficult part of my job is a limit statement in SQL? That's how much respect he has for what I do? Then he wants me to help him when he can't figure out basic issues? I have no problem helping him, I know that what is basic to me might not be very basic to him, I'll help him with whatever he needs all day without asking for anything in return. I'd just like to see a little more respect for my profession coming from him. It might only be a hobby to him, but for me it's a craft, an art, and a career.

As an analogy, it sounds like someone who likes heading out to the construction site to hang out with the workers and check out their tools, maybe hammer a few nails in. Then he gets the idea that he can do all of that, the only thing he needs is someone to design the actual house, give him the blueprints, and he can build the entire thing himself without any training or experience. After all, if he gets stuck he can just ask a contractor how to do something, right? Is that going to be a house that anyone will want to live in? Yeah, maybe it looks pretty great on the outside, but maybe he also used half-inch nails to hold together any load-bearing structure. Once that thing gets some decent use it's going to come crashing down, and it's really no different for any major programming project. If it was designed by an amateur then it's going to run like amateur software. I understand it's only a hobby for him, but I'd like to see a little recognition for the people who actually do it well. He's standing on the shoulders of giants and acting like he's tall.

OK, hopefully that's my rant for the day.

[astonecipher]

I agree completely with ArtificialSoldier. Currently, I am trying to debug a system that has a few hundred classes that is not outputting correctly and giving 500 code server errors. The goal is not just to "get it to work," it should do what it is supposed to and do it efficiently.

Hobby anything is a different class than professional. I take pride in what I do and what a put out. There is a phrase in military and competitive shooting circle, "Aim small, miss small."

If your goal is to putout crap, then you will. If you learn and improve, what you putout will get better. If you settle for shit, guess what you get?

This post has been edited by astonecipher: 27 April 2015 - 10:19 AM

[BenignDesign]

What caught my attention was this:

Quote

Dream in Code, as helpful as you've been, you can't hold a candle to digital point... at least the people there aren't overly rude.

Still, I'll stay, but learn how to treat people, lol.

This is not the first time you've posted over some perceived slight because the regulars haven't rolled out the special snowflake carpet for you, but my question is if digital point is so much better, what exactly brings you here?

[macosxnerd101]

I was taking an IT class my freshman year of high school and heard horror stories about the Java programming unit. So I picked up a Java for Dummies book while we were working through our algorithms unit. As it turned out, I was actually good at programming!

Quote

but my question is if digital point is so much better, what exactly brings you here?

B9's milkshakes.

[Gorian]

I want a special snowflake carpet!

[no2pencil]

BenignDesign, on 27 April 2015 - 01:39 PM, said:

What caught my attention was this:

Quote

Dream in Code, as helpful as you've been, you can't hold a candle to digital point... at least the people there aren't overly rude.

Still, I'll stay, but learn how to treat people, lol.

This is not the first time you've posted over some perceived slight because the regulars haven't rolled out the special snowflake carpet for you, but my question is if digital point is so much better, what exactly brings you here?

You just want to hear him say you, don't yah? DON'T YAH!?

[Gorian]

I don't know, I think No2's milkshakes are pretty nice

This post has been edited by Gorian: 27 April 2015 - 10:46 AM

[BenignDesign]

macosxnerd101, on 27 April 2015 - 01:42 PM, said:

Quote

but my question is if digital point is so much better, what exactly brings you here?

B9's milkshakes.

My milkshake brings all the noobs to the boards
And they're like my site's not porn
Damn right, better not be porn
We can teach you, but you have to try...