Why PHP sucks

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98 Replies - 4853 Views - Last Post: 24 January 2018 - 02:52 PM

#16 modi123_1   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 13 January 2018 - 09:38 AM

*shrug* Seems reasonable. Plenty of code has been released as 'open source' but for over the top maintenance requires a paid plan. See a ton of Drupal and Wordpress plugins/themes/widgets.
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#17 dev_   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 13 January 2018 - 10:06 AM

Im unable to edit my prev post (why?) and I want to add sth.

I googled opinions about Zend:: no negative comments, only positive. This makes me feel as if Zend Technologies Ltd keep track of what and where is written about their product/s and interfere by forcing to delete/filling abuse report against negative input.

Picture I got from browsing their repo (especially this) is that they lost in popularity. Good for them -> well done. Its natural consequence of shady things done in the past.

In fact the same fate should be shared by whole Zend Technologies company -> thats what they well deserved.

View Postmodi123_1, on 13 January 2018 - 06:38 PM, said:

*shrug* Seems reasonable. Plenty of code has been released as 'open source' but for over the top maintenance requires a paid plan. See a ton of Drupal and Wordpress plugins/themes/widgets.

Thats the problem - we asked simple question which does not require paid plan. In other words - our question was related to the part of code which is open sourced (=> GPL).

Thats the main problem here.....
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#18 jon.kiparsky   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 13 January 2018 - 10:26 AM

*
POPULAR

This may be a crazy idea, but could it be possible that you find a lot of positive comments about Zend out there because a lot of people feel positively about Zend?

Quote

Thats the problem - we asked simple question which does not require paid plan. In other words - our question was related to the part of code which is open sourced (=> GPL).


I think you're not understanding how "open source" works. The GPL does not confer any obligation of support, it just means that the original producer of that code has conferred upon you the right to use, modify, distribute, and otherwise fold, spindle, and mutilate the source code that they made, on the condition that you do not abrogate that right for future users. Zend produces software and sells support services. You are free to solve the problem yourself and publish your solution, or to contract with someone else for support, or to become an expert and sell support services in competition with them, or if you want you can sign up with Zend for a support plan.

If the question is that simple, maybe it would be more useful to post that question in a new topic here so you might get an answer?
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#19 no2pencil   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 13 January 2018 - 10:49 AM

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 13 January 2018 - 12:26 PM, said:

I think you're not understanding how "open source" works.

& also that Zend is a framework for PHP.
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#20 Martyr2   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 13 January 2018 - 11:18 AM

Along the lines of what no2pencil just said... I am wondering if this thread is whether or not PHP sucks or if Zend support sucks? Sounds like dev_ is more peeved at Zend than at PHP the language. Just an observation.

This post has been edited by Martyr2: 13 January 2018 - 11:20 AM

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#21 dev_   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 13 January 2018 - 01:43 PM

View PostMartyr2, on 13 January 2018 - 08:18 PM, said:

Along the lines of what no2pencil just said... I am wondering if this thread is whether or not PHP sucks or if Zend support sucks? Sounds like dev_ is more peeved at Zend than at PHP the language. Just an observation.

It originated from PHP, but it was later driven towards Zend.
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#22 CTphpnwb   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 14 January 2018 - 12:32 PM

21, now 22... posts in this thread and we still don't know what the problem is.
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#23 no2pencil   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 14 January 2018 - 01:18 PM

View PostCTphpnwb, on 14 January 2018 - 02:32 PM, said:

21, now 22... posts in this thread and we still don't know what the problem is.

Op is mad that Zend doesn't support an open source product.
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#24 CTphpnwb   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 14 January 2018 - 05:10 PM

But they do support it! Apparently the Op thinks their it's ok for business to charge fees but it shouldn't have to pay them.
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#25 ArtificialSoldier   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 15 January 2018 - 10:00 AM

This reads like dev_ tried to email Zend for help about why his code using the mysql extension doesn't work any more - in other words, regular help for PHP code - and got denied because Zend doesn't have time to answer every minor question for every beginning PHP programmer out there. I'm sure that if the support you contacted them about was related to a bug you found in the C code for PHP then Zend would be the right company to contact to get it fixed. But without any other details of your conversation, and since you started off by talking crap about PHP because they removed something that should have been removed 14 years ago, you're not exactly coming off as a serious developer with a serious gripe. It sounds like you saw Zend's logo on the PHP manual and decided to contact them for your programming questions. That's not what Zend does. But, again, with nothing more than a vague description of your communication with Zend, it's hard to fault them for anything at this point. But don't let that stop you from assuming there's some sort of conspiracy to remove negative Zend reviews from the internet.

Personally, I've met Zeev and Andi, and some of the PHP core developers, and I think all of them are pretty good people. And they're also hugely responsible for transforming PHP from a hobby language to what it is today. If you have no experience with versions 1 through 3 of PHP then you're probably not in a fantastic position to talk about what Zend has done for PHP.
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#26 dev_   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 16 January 2018 - 02:03 AM

#25....

I emailed (not tried but really did send an email) their S U P P O R T dep asing for help, not with pure PHP, but with ZEND FRAMEWORK (nonetheless THEIR product, so they have to support it). Thats how things work. Support dep is for (as the name suggests) supporting something (in this case ZF).

If you say mysql extension support (?) should have been removed than let me ask you:: why not remove support for other DBs also? Or even better - why not remove DBs at large? We woul;d be having data stored in plain textfiles, vulnerable for attacks, but you'd be happy......

And hell yes :: its extremely popular (as well as shady) to remove negative comments/reviews from public eye and create false impression of how hard thay work on 'wonderfull' piece of so-called software. In fact the more 'productive' (in negative sense) they are with their 'campain', the crappier the software; just to mislead general population. Just take look around. Many shady (so called IT) companies out there do just this (to name a few :: GitLab, NodeBB, Zend and maaany others).

Try to write sth negative asbout, say, GitLab.... in the very best case you'd be banned from their support forums.

This post has been edited by dev_: 16 January 2018 - 02:14 AM

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#27 jon.kiparsky   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 16 January 2018 - 10:05 AM

View Postdev_, on 16 January 2018 - 04:03 AM, said:

I emailed (not tried but really did send an email) their S U P P O R T dep asing for help, not with pure PHP, but with ZEND FRAMEWORK (nonetheless THEIR product, so they have to support it). Thats how things work.


They don't actually have to do anything. That's not how things work. If you have a support contract with them, they are under the obligations specified in that contract. If not, they have to decide what level of support they're providing to some random user walking in off the street.
Since you haven't said much about your question, or how you approached them, or what their response was, we're all having to make assumptions about what happened. If you don't like the assumptions that people are making, please fill in facts. What was the issue, how did you approach them, what was their response?


Quote

And hell yes :: its extremely popular (as well as shady) to remove negative comments/reviews from public eye and create false impression of how hard thay work on 'wonderfull' piece of so-called software. In fact the more 'productive' (in negative sense) they are with their 'campain', the crappier the software; just to mislead general population. Just take look around. Many shady (so called IT) companies out there do just this (to name a few :: GitLab, NodeBB, Zend and maaany others).


This is confusing. Are you talking about removing comments from public forums, or from forums that they own, or what?
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#28 ArtificialSoldier   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 16 January 2018 - 10:38 AM

Quote

I emailed (not tried but really did send an email) their S U P P O R T dep asing for help, not with pure PHP, but with ZEND FRAMEWORK (nonetheless THEIR product, so they have to support it).

Good, details are always good. It's always better to have details than vague suggestions that they turned you down for support. Makes the discussion go smoother. As far as whether or not they have to support it, how much did you pay for Zend Framework? You didn't pay anything, did you, they gave it to your for free, right? So, where do you think they make their money? If, like Red Hat, you understand that all of their profit is in support, and they expect people to pay for that, then you're right! If you think that support is something else you should get for free, then you're wrong.

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If you say mysql extension support (?) should have been removed than let me ask you:: why not remove support for other DBs also?

You don't understand the issue. There's no problem with supporting the MySQL database, and they never removed the ability to do that. What they did was develop the improved MySQL extension for PHP (mysqli) to replace the old mysql extension, because mysqli supported a lot of new features and had security and performance improvements not possible with the old extension. And, when they released that extension, waaaay back around 2002, they deprecated the old extension, because the new extension supported everything the old one did and a lot more. So, anyone writing PHP code to work with MySQL since 2002 should have been using the newer extension, not the old one. If you have learned PHP since then, then I'll put a question back to you: why did you learn the old deprecated way to do something instead of the new way, and why are you blaming the maintainers of PHP for finally removing something which they said they were going to remove 16 years ago? Why is this their fault instead of your fault? Because you are literally the first programmer I've ever seen try to use the old broken mysql extension as a positive for PHP. Everyone else sees it as a negative, so you have a pretty unique perspective. I'd like you to expand on that and help me understand why PHP is at fault for your old mysql code breaking in 2018.

As for whether or not you should learn mysqli or PDO, well, I'll leave that up to you. A lot of experienced programmers I know prefer PDO, and so do I, but no one will force you to use it. If you don't like a single database layer which can work with multiple databases, if you'd rather rewrite all of your code if your client wants to switch from MySQL to PostgreSQL, fine, use an extension that only supports a single database.

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We woul;d be having data stored in plain textfiles, vulnerable for attacks, but you'd be happy......

Speaking of "vulnerable to attacks", guess what one of the major reasons is why the old mysql extension was deprecated. Guess what the single largest attack vector is for online applications and how the old mysql extension fits into that. Look up some old discussions (from more than a decade or so ago) on whether or not PHP is considered secure and figure out what the arguments were back then. Or, ignore history and complain because the 16 year old way you learned to do something isn't applicable today, whatever suits you. Just keep in mind that you're trying to use something that has been deprecated for longer than a lot of people learning PHP have been alive. Maybe stop and consider that everyone had a good reason to deprecate that instead of just assuming that you know more than them and that it's perfectly fine to use.

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And hell yes :: its extremely popular (as well as shady) to remove negative comments/reviews from public eye and create false impression of how hard thay work on 'wonderfull' piece of so-called software.

Maybe, if the company has suspect morals to begin with. I don't see how that applies to Zend. Zend is generally a well-respected and liked company in the PHP world. They put on one of the major PHP conventions every year. They do good work, and their positive feedback will always outnumber the negative without them having to do anything shady.

Quote

Try to write sth negative asbout, say, GitLab.... in the very best case you'd be banned from their support forums.

Why would I write something negative about that company, I don't use them for anything. I'm not going to go trolling some forum. And if you have any actual evidence of wrongdoing by Zend, feel free to expose it. Otherwise, I'm sure you've heard the saying that opinions are like assholes. Hopefully you don't mind if I don't pay a lot of attention to the opinion of someone who thinks that the old mysql extension is some great part of PHP.
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#29 baavgai   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 16 January 2018 - 10:54 AM

View Postdev_, on 16 January 2018 - 04:03 AM, said:

I emailed (not tried but really did send an email) their S U P P O R T dep asing for help, not with pure PHP, but with ZEND FRAMEWORK (nonetheless THEIR product, so they have to support it). Thats how things work. Support dep is for (as the name suggests) supporting something (in this case ZF).


Hmm... If I write a framework, any framework, my "support" is in making sure all things work as intended. These means dealing with bugs and implementation issues. Coding issues aren't a support problem unless code is clearly exposing a bug by offering unexpected or inconsistent results. Coding, as in "how do I do X" falls within the domain of documentation. And, if lucky, active user forums.

PHP, and Zend, while not may favorite tools in the tool box, can't really be faulted for either their docs or user forums. Indeed, sometimes this level of "support" is all that really recommends PHP over anything else. PHP has achieved market saturation to the point that googling an issue is far more likely to get you "support" that a niche toy, no matter how clever, could hope only dream of.

View Postandrewsw, on 12 January 2018 - 09:45 AM, said:

dev_ I've advised you about your language just recently. Calm it down.

Language? Fuck is a fucking punctuation here in Soprano land. Exposition sans expletives obfuscates understanding. Next you'll be correcting teh grammer: then, truly, fucked I am.

Seriously, big kids can use any words they like, as long as it makes sense. Most people eventually figure out that loaded language is usually more a hindrance than a help. Some, of course, are too fucking thick to ever figure out shit.
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#30 dev_   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 17 January 2018 - 04:35 AM

Someone up suggested that Zend is good, because many reasons and because they host some conference? Hosting conference makes them good or what? First off - here in Poland - PhpCon strucks an ambition of 'wanna-be' programmers, coders, testers and whole bunch of other (rather shady) asses who than later boast about attending phpConm, pretending to be God knows who, and demonstrating their (in 99% cases exxagerated) superiority.....

Another thing being business tactic that Zend uses. Its not very well received to code sth and than grab others' code, connect it to whatever was invented, than start a company which .... offers paid support plan. Oh yes -> paid support for free product? More -> They treat non-paying askers as if they never asked a question. Fucked up strategy.

Its not only Zend - more and more companies do this. But it started from Zend.

Enlighten me please - whats the logic behind offering free product but asking for (rather good sum of) money for supporting it? Its fucked up.
I understand that company generates costs -> ok. But,

Firstoff -> there are other (more moral) ways of making money,
Second -> Im affraid that offering paid support for free product is against GPL. According to GPL, one is allowed to earn money by selling copies of software, not by offering support.

Sorry, but thats how I (and we in company) see it.
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