Why PHP sucks

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98 Replies - 4851 Views - Last Post: 24 January 2018 - 02:52 PM

#31 jon.kiparsky   User is online

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 17 January 2018 - 06:25 AM

View Postdev_, on 17 January 2018 - 06:35 AM, said:

Enlighten me please - whats the logic behind offering free product but asking for (rather good sum of) money for supporting it? Its fucked up.
I understand that company generates costs -> ok. But,

Firstoff -> there are other (more moral) ways of making money,
Second -> Im affraid that offering paid support for free product is against GPL. According to GPL, one is allowed to earn money by selling copies of software, not by offering support.


This is literally the business model that Stallman envisioned when he wrote the GPL: you make the code free to all to use as they see fit, and you sell support services. It is not in any way contrary to the GPL (which may or may not be the license Zend uses, I have no idea). The GPL allows the recipient of a GPL-licensed software to use, modify, and distribute (including in modified form) the software they received, under the condition that they allow the same rights to those who receive the software from them, under the same license. That's pretty much the nots and bolts of it - you can read it if you like.

I don't see why this model bothers you so much. What are Zend's other options? They could choose to simply not make the product, or they could choose to sell the product under some terms that would include the level of support you would like, or they could offer the product and the support for free, presumably making money in some other way.
If you'd rather they chose the first option, that's easy enough: just don't use the product. Pretend it doesn't exist. Happy?
If you'd rather the second option, just buy a support package and pretend you're buying the product as well. Now you have the deal you wanted. Happier now?
If you'd rather the third option, then perhaps you should explain exactly how the company stays in business and pays programmers plus support staff to develop new features and also support literally everyone in the world who has a question about using their product.

If you don't like the way Zend provides support, and you think others agree with you, there is literally nothing in the world from becoming an expert on their product and offering support services for Zend products on terms that you think would be more reasonable. If you don't like the way they're doing it, put your money where your mouth is and do it better.
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#32 no2pencil   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 17 January 2018 - 07:54 AM

@dev_; I think you are misunderstanding "support their product". Zend is not in business to help you develop using their framework. It's open source & you are welcome to use it as you wish. You are also welcome to pay for them to assist you in development. While I don't know about Zend specifically, other companies that use this model do not tell bug submitters to FOAD, they support their product by accepting the bug reports, applying patches, offering updates to the open source product.

Additionally, I wouldn't want a company that I'm paying for a subscription support plan, to stack their "to-do" queue with free users.
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#33 dev_   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 17 January 2018 - 08:11 AM

#31: Thats NOT how Stallman envisioned; it seems you dont understand GPL...... it happens; noone is perfect.

Why Zend business model bothers me? Simply because its morality is questionable. How could Zend make money in other way? Extremely simple:: just look for investor(s) who will inject money into company.... simple, but needs time and preliminary resources, but still profitable (when done right ofc)....

First - what is (was) reasoning behind creating the company? To support development? Or to do what? Never mind the reasoning :: its morally wrong (IMO) to create company in order to support development of open software... Once the company is created, its more like proprietary software with publicly available sources.

And talking about company, open collaboration and alike :: IF (=if) anyone can write (and submit) code than what are PAID developers (=EMPLOYEES) doing there?

Either you base on volunteers as a developers and create (really) FREE software, or you start a company and create PROPRIETARY software. Mixing these two forms is morally wrong = you shouldnt do it. In fact thats exactly what one should avoid at ANY cost.

Thats my point of view.

This post has been edited by dev_: 17 January 2018 - 08:23 AM

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#34 dev_   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 17 January 2018 - 08:22 AM

View Postno2pencil, on 17 January 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

@dev_; I think you are misunderstanding "support their product". Zend is not in business to help you develop using their framework. It's open source & you are welcome to use it as you wish. You are also welcome to pay for them to assist you in development. While I don't know about Zend specifically, other companies that use this model do not tell bug submitters to FOAD, they support their product by accepting the bug reports, applying patches, offering updates to the open source product.

Additionally, I wouldn't want a company that I'm paying for a subscription support plan, to stack their "to-do" queue with free users.

Seriously - you mixed two/three things. Bug researchers and developers/users who develop their own things based on framework....

This post has been edited by dev_: 17 January 2018 - 08:23 AM

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#35 modi123_1   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 17 January 2018 - 08:30 AM

If you got tweaked so bad why are you using 'zend'? Sure I get the embarrassment of assuming full support when you are at the 'free tier', and can understand how it tweaks the nurples hard if you got booted off their forums for raging on them for not providing 'for-pay' support at the 'free-tier' level, but why not dust your hands of them and use something else?
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#36 jon.kiparsky   User is online

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 17 January 2018 - 09:17 AM

View Postdev_, on 17 January 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

#31: Thats NOT how Stallman envisioned; it seems you dont understand GPL...... it happens; noone is perfect.


I think you should probably read some of Stallman's writings. Start here: https://www.gnu.org/...3-hardcover.pdf
You should also read the GPL, which I've linked to already.


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How could Zend make money in other way? Extremely simple:: just look for investor(s) who will inject money into company.... simple, but needs time and preliminary resources, but still profitable (when done right ofc)....


Investors are not donors - they expect something back for their investment. In fact, taking investment money would force Zend to focus more on delivering profits, which would exacerbate the things that you've identified as problems. Once you have investors, you have a set of stakeholders who will demand regular service in the form of cash, which means Zend will have less flexibility to do the sorts of things you're asking for.

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First - what is (was) reasoning behind creating the company? To support development? Or to do what? Never mind the reasoning :: its morally wrong (IMO) to create company in order to support development of open software... Once the company is created, its more like proprietary software with publicly available sources.


I appreciate your idealism, but you really need to spend a little time thinking about this. Is it morally wrong to develop open-source software and make it available to the world? Is it morally wrong to sell support for open-source software? If those are both okay, then how is it wrong to develop open-source software and sell support for it?


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And talking about company, open collaboration and alike :: IF (=if) anyone can write (and submit) code than what are PAID developers (=EMPLOYEES) doing there?


Um.... getting paid? This is not uncommon. Unix was developed by paid employees from the start, and the current linux kernel is mostly developed by paid employees at a number of companies

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Either you base on volunteers as a developers and create (really) FREE software, or you start a company and create PROPRIETARY software. Mixing these two forms is morally wrong = you shouldnt do it. In fact thats exactly what one should avoid at ANY cost.


Please explain
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#37 baavgai   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 17 January 2018 - 09:50 AM

View Postdev_, on 17 January 2018 - 10:11 AM, said:

#31: Thats NOT how Stallman envisioned; it seems you dont understand GPL

Hmm... jon.kiparsky's statements appear accurate.

Whereas

View Postdev_, on 17 January 2018 - 06:35 AM, said:

Im affraid that offering paid support for free product is against GPL.

this is clearly wrong. The GPL only speaks to source code accessibility. It is a defense against proprietary systems. Its continued effectiveness is due, in no small part, to not addressing more than the most basic (perhaps naive) concept of open source.

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Selling professional services
The financial return of costs on open-source software can also come from selling services, such as training, technical support, or consulting, rather than the software itself.[12][13]

Another possibility is offering open-source software in source code form only, while providing executable binaries to paying customers only, offering the commercial service of compiling and packaging of the software. Also, providing goods like physical installation media (e.g., DVDs) can be a commercial service.

Open-source companies using this business model successfully are for instance RedHat and IBM;[14] a more specialized example is that of Revolution Analytics.
-- https://en.wikipedia...sional_services

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#38 ArtificialSoldier   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 17 January 2018 - 10:40 AM

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First off - here in Poland

OK, PHP conferences and programmers in Poland generally suck, gotcha. There are several others listed online, keep an eye out for the next ZendCon and come out and see for yourself what an awful company Zend is.

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Its not very well received to code sth and than grab others' code, connect it to whatever was invented, than start a company which .... offers paid support plan.

That's what you think Zend did? Really? Have you done any research at all about this company? If what you say is true, then answer why PHP version 3 used the .php3 file extension instead of just .php.

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But it started from Zend.

I don't know where you're getting your information. Just out of curiosity, so I know better who I'm talking to, how old are you?

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Enlighten me please - whats the logic behind offering free product but asking for (rather good sum of) money for supporting it?

The alternative is that they charge you to use Zend Framework and whatever else they make, is that what you would rather do, just pay for it? Would you stop complaining then? What about all of the other people who can use these products without requiring any support from Zend, you think they should start paying too? You're complaining about the entire open source business model. If you don't understand the open source business model there is a lot of information online about that, I don't need to rehash all of that for you. The information is out there. If you wonder whether the open source business model works, I'll again refer to you Red Hat, with revenue of almost $3 billion.

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Firstoff -> there are other (more moral) ways of making money,

You're trying to suggest that it is immoral to release something to everyone for free but then ask them to pay a cost if they need your time to figure out how to use it? Keep in mind that the majority of their users do not need help, there is a lot of documentation and a community out there that costs no money to take advantage of. But you think this is immoral somehow? Then does that mean that companies like Apple and Microsoft are paragons of morality since they charge both for the product AND support? Does it become immoral when a company gives away their product for free? Where exactly does morality come into this?

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Second -> Im affraid that offering paid support for free product is against GPL.

You don't have to be afraid, because that's not true. If you disagree, kindly point to the specific section of the GPL which describes prohibited business practices not related to distributing or modifying the code or whatever else is covered under the license. Then, once you've done that, tell me how this applies to PHP or Zend at all, which do not even use the GPL in the first place. Feel free to Google "PHP license" or "Zend license" if you want to figure out what you're trying to talk about. In fact, feel free to do research before you make claims also, not just after.

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Sorry, but thats how I (and we in company) see it.

I understand, we've already established that you have an opinion in the extreme minority which doesn't really bear into reality. See the mysql extension for an example.
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#39 dev_   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 17 January 2018 - 10:42 AM

Once agvain :: company which produces software, distribute it freely and than makes users pay for support is not worthy dealing with. Better treat them like some kind of stupid joke. Dont get me wrong - many companies produces great free sodtware, but only few of these companies can be treated seriously.

In fact donors are like investors. The only difference is that investors requires money as their 'reward' for investing......

Oh yes :: releasing software for free and than requiring users to paid if they want support, is inmoral.

This post has been edited by dev_: 17 January 2018 - 10:49 AM

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#40 modi123_1   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 17 January 2018 - 10:48 AM

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company which produces software, distribute it freely and than makes users pay for support is not worthy dealing with. Better treat them like some kind of stupid joke.

Does that include Redhat? IBM? Oracle?

The 'Professional Services Model' is not new.
http://www.openhealt...more-depth-view
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#41 ArtificialSoldier   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 17 January 2018 - 10:53 AM

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Once agvain :: company which produces software, distribute it freely and than makes users pay for support is not worthy dealing with.

Right, Red Hat, Canonical, Docker, MongoDB, Apache, SUSE, etc are all morally bankrupt companies. And who know who really sucks? Monty Widenius, the creator of MySQL and MariaDB. Man, screw that guy, what an ass.

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Oh yes :: releasing software for free and than requiring users to paid if they want support, is inmoral.

OK, but what makes it moral? Is it moral if they charge people for the software AND support? Does that make it moral, if they added a charge? Or do you think companies just have an obligation to provide free support for all products for life? Just out of curiosity, have you ever released your own software? How many users do you have? What is your own support model? I'd like to see a moral example of what you're talking about.
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#42 modi123_1   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 17 January 2018 - 10:55 AM

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screw that guy, what an ass.

Ah, an ass man I see. Groovy! ;)
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#43 ArtificialSoldier   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 17 January 2018 - 11:04 AM

What about books? Is it immoral if you write a book about how to use a certain piece of free software? Apache, for example, is it immoral to write a book about how to administer Apache servers and then offer that book for sale? What about a company like Percona? Is it immoral to start a company in the business of offering consulting for free software that they didn't even create?
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#44 jon.kiparsky   User is online

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 17 January 2018 - 11:38 AM

View Postdev_, on 17 January 2018 - 12:42 PM, said:

In fact donors are like investors. The only difference is that investors requires money as their 'reward' for investing......


So would you be willing to donate to Zend if they made their support free? 'Cause I can think of a way you could get something very much like that deal...


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Oh yes :: releasing software for free and than requiring users to paid if they want support, is inmoral.


This is a proposition about ethics, but I don't know why I should believe it. Please try to convince me. What's the broader ethical theory that this fits into? What sorts of business models would be moral in your view? If you were given control of Zend and asked to run the company in a "moral" fashion, what changes would you make? Would you employ developers and support staff? Would you turn it into an all-volunteer effort?
Do you think that Red Hat and Canonical should close up their doors? Should Linus start rejecting commits to the linux kernel from people who write their contributions on paid time?

Hell, what about github? Should they just close down?

Please develop your ideas, instead of just asserting them.
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#45 dev_   User is offline

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Re: Why PHP sucks

Posted 17 January 2018 - 11:47 AM

NO; Golden rule :: free software = free support and EVERY service company provides; Paid software = paid support and everything; such thing like free software + paid support = cannot be.
RH and Canonical (generally EVERY company that produces software shoulds seriously rethink their strategy and - if they offer free software, than so should be support (or any other service that comes with it.

GPL should be changed to disallow such thing like free software, but paid support.

If Zend would make their support free than yes, I would donate. I'd be mmore than happy to donate as I really respect someone who writes software that (in any way possible) makes sth easier (even when making easier is illusional in some way).

This post has been edited by dev_: 17 January 2018 - 11:51 AM

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