A Question about American Politics

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#1 UniverseIsASimulation   User is offline

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A Question about American Politics

Posted 03 March 2018 - 04:43 AM

How do the American conservatives respond to the notion that the America's involvement in the Yugoslav Wars (the bombings of Belgrade) is responsible for the recent rise of socialism (as an opposition to the "capitalism") in Croatia?
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#2 modi123_1   User is online

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 03 March 2018 - 06:50 AM

For current political discussions that's not heavy on the radar anymore seeing as that was 24ish years ago.

Conservative/liberal labeling aside I view it as the NATO involvement (include the US) being a positive action to stop the conflict and genocide that was happening. The ebb and flow of socialism/capitalism post then being a lesser thought as long as free elections and what not are occurring.
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#3 jon.kiparsky   User is online

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 03 March 2018 - 09:03 AM

I'm a pretty steady consumer of print news, and I can't say that I've seen this issue come up - conservative or liberal or any other flavor, I just haven't seen anyone talking about it. As a theory, I suppose on its face it's not more ridiculous than many which are floated today, but I don't know enough about the politics of the region formerly known as Yugoslavia to take a position on whether I think it's plausible or even probable.

What brings this up? Is this a question that people are talking about where you are?
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#4 baavgai   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 03 March 2018 - 09:06 AM

Since nearly half our voters elected "a very stable genius" i.e. a mentally unhinged man child, we've kind of been distracted. Indeed, if you were to watch main stream media new outlets, you would find the correlation to actual news tends to be very low.

For the US news to report world events, those events must have a direct hook into national politics. Even then, it's hit or miss, as the predominate narrative tends to be tailored by the oligarchy. In short, we have not clue what you're talking about: sorry.

Don't take is personally: happenings in the US proper are ignored or spun to suit the donor class. You need look no farther than Puerto Rico, a continuing national embarrassment that is now barely talked about and then in this oddly fatalistic way, as if nothing could be done.
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#5 snoopy11   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 04 March 2018 - 05:11 AM

Well you can blame the US as the worlds only superpower for just about anything you can turn your tiny mind to.....

Blaming the US for socialism in Europe is a bit of a stretch though the UK had fought socialist excesses in Europe for over thirty years in favour of free market capitalist approaches but didn't get anywhere...

Socialism itself is a dead concept in my country as all it ever has led to is spending ever increasing amounts on social problems that never fixed anything in particular...

The only thing that ever seems to work is a caring capitalist approach where the best of socialist programmes like free medical aid for the poor and money for the unemployed and disabled are married with capitalist programmes like free trade and market transparency....

As for the genocide in the Balkan Wars somebody had to put a stop to that so thank God the US did hardly something you can blame Americans for.....

And lastly why should Americans care what happens in the Balkan nations anyway...??
If I was American I certainly wouldn't......
Do you care what happens in New York or Washington....?? Thought not...
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#6 andrewsw   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 04 March 2018 - 06:05 AM

@OP please contribute your thoughts to the discussion. Currently this just reads as your essay assignment.
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#7 UniverseIsASimulation   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 04 March 2018 - 08:22 AM

You basically all say the same thing, I'll try to respond generally.

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Blaming the US for socialism in Europe is a bit of a stretch though the UK had fought socialist excesses in Europe for over thirty years in favour of free market capitalist approaches but didn't get anywhere...

Well, in school, we are taught quite a different story. We are taught that, at the beginning of World War II, the USA and the UK supported the Cetnik'es (a fascist organization on the land of the modern-day Croatia). And that, at the end of the WW2, they supported the Partizans (a communist organization). And that the Mirnis (the political organization on the territory of modern-day Croatia which supported free-market capitalism) didn't succeed because it didn't receive any help from either UK or the USA.

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As for the genocide in the Balkan Wars somebody had to put a stop to that so thank God the US did hardly something you can blame Americans for…

OK, let's put that into perspective. In the genocide in Vukovar (certainly the largest genocide the Neofascists did in Croatia during the Yugoslav Wars), 3000 people died (that's what we are taught at school in Croatia, the actual number may be even lower). In the bombings of Belgrade, 5000 people died (again, that's the figure we are taught at school). So?
Furthermore, how was bombing the Belgrade years after the war was over supposed to end the genocide? Almost nobody in Belgrade then even believed in Neofascism.

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And lastly why should Americans care what happens in the Balkan nations anyway...??

Because the American conservatives pretend that America brings freedom and capitalism whenever it's involved in a war. I think that Croatia is a proof that it doesn't.

This post has been edited by UniverseIsASimulation: 04 March 2018 - 08:29 AM

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#8 baavgai   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 04 March 2018 - 09:19 AM

View PostUniverseIsASimulation, on 04 March 2018 - 10:22 AM, said:

We are taught that, at the beginning of World War II, the USA and the UK supported the Cetnik'es (a fascist organization on the land of the modern-day Croatia). And that, at the end of the WW2, they supported the Partizans (a communist organization).


Interesting. Governments only support organizations that offer them something. The US has a long history of supporting regimes that may be "unamerican" in how they treat their populous, but somehow support US interests. The US, of course, is not unique in this: international politics is usually a morally questionable quagmire of compromise.

At the beginning of WW2, the Chetnik Detachments of the Yugoslav Army was anti-Axis, which means regardless of any other associations, they would be considered a defacto ally. The US supported Russia for basically the same reason.

It would be incorrect to say the US supported the communist Partisans. Rather, diplomatic relations simply stopped. There was actually a large Serbian migration to the US at this time.

Shortly after WW2, the US moved into a long standing "cold war" where all things Communist were seen as an existential threat to all things American. The only policy the US really has toward communist countries for a long time was to end their communism. Yes, this is myopically arrogant.
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#9 snoopy11   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 04 March 2018 - 09:27 AM

Err Yeah.... you completely miss out that 8000 bosnian men and boys were genocidally killed and 30,000 men and boys were displaced from their homes....

convenient that....

Also Nobody in America as far as I have ever met and Ive met a few americans and actually have been to America... thinks that the US brings peace and prosperity through War... thats just stupid.

The Balkans have been a basket case for thousands of years to think that the US is the answer to Croatian problems is juvenile....

Croatians are the answer to Croatia's problems... no one else....
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#10 baavgai   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 04 March 2018 - 09:58 AM

Right, as an American who happens to also follow non American news sources... Americans don't care about the rest of the world. Not really.

I've seen TV news in all parts of the globe and am always struck by how often they talk about other countries. It would not be an exaggeration to say that people in other countries probably have a better handle on US politics than US citizens. In contrast, US world news is mostly about US news that might happen outside the US.

America loves its mythology. We like to believe things like Horacio Alger's American Dream. That Lincoln freed the slaves out of the goodness of his heart while at the same time slavery wasn't all that bad. And, apropos to you, that the United States of America saved the World in World War II and... wait for it... has continued to do so ever since!

It's fair to say that most Americans would be horrified by how the rest of the world sees them. We like to believe we are a shining example of Freedom, Justice for All, Success via Hard Work, and lots of other jingoistic dreck. Most folks here are ignorant of the oligarchic nature of the country and still prefer to believe the propaganda.
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#11 UniverseIsASimulation   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 04 March 2018 - 01:01 PM

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At the beginning of WW2, the Chetnik Detachments of the Yugoslav Army was anti-Axis.

No, it wasn't. It just had a rhetoric that it wanted an independent state of Croatia. In reality, just like the Ustases, all they wanted was a puppet state.

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you completely miss out that 8000 bosnian men and boys were genocidally killed and 30,000 men and boys were displaced from their homes

Look, I agree, things were terrible, especially in Bosnia. But, again, how was bombing the Belgrade supposed to solve it? Do you think that bombing the Dresden helped ending the Holocaust? Plus, unlike in Dresden, almost nobody in Belgrade even believed in Fascism.

This post has been edited by UniverseIsASimulation: 04 March 2018 - 01:02 PM

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#12 modi123_1   User is online

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 04 March 2018 - 01:13 PM

Before this gets too far - let me reiterate this was a NATO op. UN on board too.
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#13 UniverseIsASimulation   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 04 March 2018 - 01:19 PM

To clarify my last post, today we are taught at school that the Chetniks cooperated with the Ustases by giving the Ustases money the foreigners gave them to fight the Fascism.
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#14 Radius Nightly   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 04 March 2018 - 03:26 PM

Dont listen it, its pure propaganda, while they dont care, and why would they, they are over the ocean.
Posted Image Posted Image Posted Image

View PostUniverseIsASimulation, on 04 March 2018 - 09:01 PM, said:

Look, I agree, things were terrible, especially in Bosnia. But, again, how was bombing the Belgrade supposed to solve it?

NATO came to stop the war, and their main mission was to destroy all ammunition storage locations, leaving them defenseless and unable to strike, which leads to the end and less casualties.

Edit: Not all things they said in school are usually truth, so its good for you to investigate, searching, watching and listening. Today internet can give you lots of information to figure out what interesting you.

This post has been edited by Radius Nightly: 04 March 2018 - 03:35 PM

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#15 Martyr2   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 04 March 2018 - 03:30 PM

View Postbaavgai, on 04 March 2018 - 08:58 AM, said:

Right, as an American who happens to also follow non American news sources... Americans don't care about the rest of the world. Not really.


I can't echo this enough. As an American who has moved to Canada and lived on both sides of the American distortion field I can tell you that much of what is portrayed in the bubble is quite inaccurate to what is seen by the rest of the world. It is not unique, China does it, Russia does it etc.

But again I can tell you that most Americans don't know even where Croatia is let alone care about what is going on there. Heck I remember my parents coming up to visit me from Washington State to Vancouver British Columbia Canada (merely 250-300 miles away from one another) and have my mother say "Wow, I didn't know all this was up here"

Canadians know a ton about the US but not the other way around. If they don't know much about their neighbor, why would they honestly care about a minor country thousands of miles away? Sorry, just being brutally honest. I know it isn't right and Americans need to expand their knowledge of the world as a whole but the same could be said for a lot of people in the bigger nations. Perhaps if we know more about one another we can find more common ground.

:)
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