A Question about American Politics

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42 Replies - 2189 Views - Last Post: 08 March 2018 - 11:13 AM

#16 baavgai   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 04 March 2018 - 03:32 PM

View PostUniverseIsASimulation, on 04 March 2018 - 03:01 PM, said:

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At the beginning of WW2, the Chetnik Detachments of the Yugoslav Army was anti-Axis.

No, it wasn't. It just had a rhetoric that it wanted an independent state of Croatia. In reality, just like the Ustases, all they wanted was a puppet state.


This doesn't appear to initially be the case. And it is the initial Ally support that's in question.

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The Chetnik Detachments of the Yugoslav Army, commonly known as the Chetniks was a World War II movement in Yugoslavia led by Draža Mihailović, an anti-Axis movement in their long-term goals which engaged in marginal resistance activities for limited periods.
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Some Chetnik leaders initially conducted a number of operations against Axis forces jointly with the Partisans.
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As support shifted towards the Partisans, Mihailović's Chetniks attempted to recommence Allied support for the Chetniks by displaying their eagerness to help the Allies.[135] They helped rescue 417 Allied aviators in Operation Halyard which they used to "make the greatest political and propaganda out of"[136] while in other instances the Chetniks also rescued German aviators and pursued Allied aviators for the Germans.[135] Mihailović later received the Legion of Merit from US President Harry S. Truman for the rescue of Allied pilots.[137]

-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chetniks


Honestly, it looks very messy. I think any unilateral statement about either the Partisans or the Chetniks is probably going to be wrong. That's kind of how reality works, I'm afraid. The more people involved, the more you should distrust clean, neat, narratives.
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#17 jon.kiparsky   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 04 March 2018 - 04:38 PM

View Postsnoopy11, on 04 March 2018 - 07:11 AM, said:

Blaming the US for socialism in Europe is a bit of a stretch though the UK had fought socialist excesses in Europe for over thirty years in favour of free market capitalist approaches but didn't get anywhere...


I think it's interesting that you say "blaming" someone for socialism... it's like saying you "blame" someone for capitalism, or for gravity.
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#18 UniverseIsASimulation   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 04 March 2018 - 09:28 PM

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They dont care, and why would they, they are over the ocean.

Again, the American conservatives say they care about the rest of the world, and that America's involvements in wars brings people freedom and capitalism.

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NATO came to stop the war, and their main mission was to destroy all ammunition storage locations, leaving them defenseless and unable to strike, which leads to the end and less casualties.

Do you have a source for your claim that a significant amount of ammunition was stored in Belgrade? As far as I know, the ammunition was stored near the concentration camps in northern Bosnia.

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Not all things they said in school are usually truth.

That's also true, but what's taught in the Croatian schools about the Croatian history is way more likely to be true than what's taught in the American schools about the Croatian history.
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#19 modi123_1   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 04 March 2018 - 09:36 PM

To be fair I doubt there is much deep Croat history being taught in US schools instead this is treated as US involvement with NATO and a historical marked note.

If folks are interested in the topic they read up on it.. if not.. they don't.
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#20 jon.kiparsky   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 04 March 2018 - 09:39 PM

View PostUniverseIsASimulation, on 04 March 2018 - 11:28 PM, said:

That's also true, but what's taught in the Croatian schools about the Croatian history is way more likely to be true than what's taught in the American schools about the Croatian history.


I'm afraid that what's taught in US schools about Croatian history is approximately nothing. I'm betting that most people here who have any knowledge of Croatian history either got it from the newspapers back when it was "current events" (thinking of the events of the '90s) or from their own reading.
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#21 Radius Nightly   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 05 March 2018 - 06:36 AM

View PostUniverseIsASimulation, on 05 March 2018 - 05:28 AM, said:

Again, the American conservatives say they care about the rest of the world, and that America's involvements in wars brings people freedom and capitalism.

They said, same as you would, peace to all, but war last for like 10 years until they say it. They probably tough Yugoslavians army are in top 3 in the world, not so smart to go there, they will stop the war soon, we have more important work in our own country to do. But they didnt have information whats happening, and how could they, not even a single journalist by their side. After Croatia asked NATO for help, it was like first voice they hear. And Croatia did it because didnt have anymore resources to fight, by resources i mean all of them, and last money whats left was spend on top class mercenaries, it was more like to buy some time.

View PostUniverseIsASimulation, on 05 March 2018 - 05:28 AM, said:

Do you have a source for your claim that a significant amount of ammunition was stored in Belgrade? As far as I know, the ammunition was stored near the concentration camps in northern Bosnia.

No, but it was expected. Why? It was answer to several problems. In short, cut the sneak head. Except destroying ammunition, they went to deal as much damage as they could.
They was trying to cut Croatia in half trough Gospic, so two cut Croatians countries cant communicate, leading to the end of Croatia, cutting down Croatians terrain in half, same as number of croats, but not also that, they was moving trough Bosnia in order to cut Croatia, hard job they did, if they success, it will also give them opportunity to surround Bosnia, leading to the end of Bosnia too. Good strategic plan, small terrain, unavoidable war win, but they didnt made it.
So, they went slaughtering peoples as you know, because they didnt have another strategy, they starts with stupid tactics, killing innocents, to kill as more as possible croats. In mean time they didnt quit, they tried to bomb near Rijeka with airplanes, to cut Croatia in half. It was way too hard for them, because of Velebit mountain, so they cant see what to aim until they pass the mountain, after that, they couldnt observe it, because Rijeka have one of the best strategic position, cove, with mountains, 3x shipyards, runway and sometimes really high wind up to 370KM/H. They aim for refinery, to cut electricity and oil/gas, they didnt make it, but if they did, it would mean, half of a Rijeka will just explode, whole region will lost electricity, and even large amount of Criatia (leaving this key part of Croatia isolated without communications), as well as destroying fuel industry, disabling all Croatian vehicles, specially heavy one, that will give them opportunity to strike again and lead to overall win against Croatia and Bosnia.
Belgrade has way more peoples then whole Croatia together, doing as much damage as they can? Sure, bomb it, payback for everything they did. But wait, behind Belgrade are another ammunition storage, probably last stand chance resources, have to come close, have to bomb it, but wait, Belgrade has one of the top defense as main city, really big city, really hard to take, so, bomb it even more. Sure thats a tail, not a snake head, but there are several embassies where big decisions are made, so bomb it even more and more. As in any game, after your main town got lots of damage, its unable to function normally until you recover it, its disabling whole country, thats why NATO did it as fast as possible.
It was not only USA, stupid to say. NATO pact sits down, made decisions, all agree in strategy, they strike. Nonsense to blame now one of the member of NATO or so.

View PostUniverseIsASimulation, on 05 March 2018 - 05:28 AM, said:

That's also true, but what's taught in the Croatian schools about the Croatian history is way more likely to be true than what's taught in the American schools about the Croatian history.

First of all, USA dont have its own history to learn about, they have like two things what happened there, and thats it, several things about known historical peoples, like Tesla, thats it, while in EU history is endless in all possible ways. So why would they learn about history of some other country. I dont remember learning history about Australia or Japan.
Second, Croatians learning history for 4+2 or 4+4 years, its a standard what all young peoples need to know, IDK for young generation, but they didnt learning anything about that war.
Probably because lots of things are wrong or confused, even to this day some inspectors still trying to figure out the chase they can, with material they have, 99.99% of chases are drop down, because lack of any evidence are dead end, mostly at start, no cameras, no eyewitnesses (dead), no documents (burned), no elders to tell a story (died), and evidence thats available are probably confusing, peoples are still combining it together, and only real documentation is probably from some outsider that cant provide enough. If young generations are learning about it, i can guess its more like one hour lecture (telling what happened for sure in short), and moving to the next lesson.
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#22 UniverseIsASimulation   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 05 March 2018 - 08:20 AM

Dude, I don't see how you can't see the problem with your narrative. The war in Croatia and Bosnia ended in 1995. The NATO bombings of Belgrade happened in 1999. Croatia didn't call for help, Croatia had already won the war. If any Croats wanted the bombing to happen (it's not hard to imagine that some wanted it back then), they wanted it because of the revenge. And that's the worst possible form of revenge: killing thousands of people, the vast majority of whom didn't have much to do with what had happened (other than being the same nation as the criminals were, and the nation isn't the same as the political affiliation).
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#23 Radius Nightly   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 05 March 2018 - 08:37 AM

There is no winner in the war. War in Croatia ended around '92-'93, in Bosnia a little bit later, officially (by documents) around '95, but war didnt ended at other regions.
There is a joke about Serbia thats like Nokia, each year smaller and smaller. http://www.show.hr/s.../9800/image.jpg
It is because of Kosovo. There are three sides. Serbia want to get their land (you know their motto, "Srbija do Tokya", like takeover everything up to the Tokyo), they defend them self and counter, and peoples in between wanted independent. In the end they become shorter one more time.

Edit: About killing, while war exists, peoples killing each others, bombing each others until last one die, so it leads to way more deaths, then stopping it by just one bombing. Has to be stopped, cant be stopped in a nice way, has to stop, no matter what, because it leads to greater destruction and way more deaths.

For example:
Imagine that im a crazy psycho, i walk in your town with machine gun, killing innocent, mans, woman, children, i dont care, i will kill whole town. And i killed 2000 peoples, you take a big ass bomb, throw it at me, you kill me and 100 civilians accidentally.
At that point, its a good thing (according to all other possibilities), there is a price to be paid, and you end this madness, you finish the massacre, stopping at 2100 deaths, thats good, its over, you bring peace.
But, if you didnt throw that bomb, tomorrow i will kill 4000 more, next day 10 000 more, until i wipe your whole town, and then, no i wont stop, i will move to another town to takeover more land, and more and more, until you do something about it.

So, its not revenge, but how war works.

This post has been edited by Radius Nightly: 05 March 2018 - 08:52 AM

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#24 jon.kiparsky   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 05 March 2018 - 08:42 AM

The funny thing is that twenty years later, you have the latest upsurge in populist nationalism and isolationism, but now it's in England, the US, Spain, etc.
Amazing how easy it is to sell that line.
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#25 UniverseIsASimulation   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 05 March 2018 - 09:46 AM

"I see a street-fight, therefore I will pick a side based on my uninformed opinion and join the fight in hope that it will end sooner!"

I'm ready to be done discussing this, especially before the discussion devolves further. If you would like to know more about Croatia, you can check out some of my work here:
Croatian Toponyms
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#26 modi123_1   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 05 March 2018 - 10:16 AM

Maybe it's Mistrustful Mondays and I am just being a Paranoid Pete, but was this kerfuffle all a ploy for another link to someone's site?

Posted Image

:D
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#27 NeoTifa   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 05 March 2018 - 10:49 AM

Sounds like you have something against America and are using that war as an excuse to fuel your hate.

All I know about Croatia and Serbia is that the landscapes look really pretty and I'd love to go visit someday.
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#28 ArtificialSoldier   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 05 March 2018 - 11:03 AM

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Look, I agree, things were terrible, especially in Bosnia. But, again, how was bombing the Belgrade supposed to solve it?

Is this the point? Are you asking people why NATO decided to bomb Belgrade during the Kosovo War in 1999? This is Operation Allied Force you're referring to, correct? Do you just not know why NATO decided to do that, and you've decided to ask a bunch of programmers? If not, then what's the point of your question, and specifically, what does it have to do with Americans in general and American conservatives in particular?

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I'm ready to be done discussing this, especially before the discussion devolves further.

What? So you ask a pointed incendiary question, then when the incendiary question starts to create a fire, you leave? Well that's not very nice.
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#29 UniverseIsASimulation   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 05 March 2018 - 11:04 AM

View Postmodi123_1, on 05 March 2018 - 10:16 AM, said:

Maybe it's Mistrustful Mondays and I am just being a Paranoid Pete, but was this kerfuffle all a ploy for another link to someone's site?

Posted Image

:D/>

I am not getting paid for people visiting my site. If I were, I wouldn't do it in raw HTML.
Honestly, I hoped everyone here would agree with me that bombing the Belgrade was wrong, but that was quite of an unrealistic expectation.
Some people here seem to be interested in Croatia, but also seem to be a bit misinformed. What's wrong with me linking to a web-page about my Croatia-related research?
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#30 modi123_1   User is offline

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Re: A Question about American Politics

Posted 05 March 2018 - 11:12 AM

It's a joke about some of the one-two punch spam we get. Lighten up Francis. :^: :D ;)
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