Java 11 license

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15 Replies - 917 Views - Last Post: 02 February 2019 - 10:24 AM

#1 Skydiver   User is offline

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Java 11 license

Posted 29 January 2019 - 04:40 PM

I'm not a lawyer. So I'm completely confused by this text in the Java 11 SE license:

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License Rights and Restrictions
Oracle grants You a nonexclusive, nontransferable, limited license to internally use the Programs, subject to the restrictions stated in this Agreement and Program Documentation, only for the purpose of developing, testing, prototyping and demonstrating Your Application and not for any other purpose. ...

Further, You may not:
- use the Programs for any data processing or any commercial, production, or internal business purposes other than developing, testing, prototyping, and demonstrating your Application;


So what am I supposed to do when my code is ready to go to production?

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Replies To: Java 11 license

#2 Skydiver   User is offline

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Re: Java 11 license

Posted 29 January 2019 - 04:48 PM

NVM. I think I figured it out.

I should be using the OpenJDK version rather than the non-open JDK version.
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#3 xclite   User is online

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Re: Java 11 license

Posted 30 January 2019 - 09:03 AM

Yup, thankfully the answer is "just don't use the Oracle JDK."
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#4 BetaWar   User is offline

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Re: Java 11 license

Posted 30 January 2019 - 09:18 AM

Got to love Oracle's greed. They also try to charge $200k+ for a commercial license... and apparently there are people that pay it...
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#5 xclite   User is online

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Re: Java 11 license

Posted 30 January 2019 - 09:38 AM

I hate do defend Oracle, but the OpenJDK has more in common with Oracle's JDK, and is developed largely by Oracle themselves. These licensing changes seem like greed but in reality just aren't a big deal. If I remember correctly, even prior versions of Java had clarify issues around whether you could deploy the "oracle" JDK, so this is a welcome clarification.
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#6 Skydiver   User is offline

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Re: Java 11 license

Posted 31 January 2019 - 06:55 PM

And interestingly Forbes posted this article today: Oracle's Newest Audit Strategy: Focusing on Java

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Now the audit process is looking not just at traditional software licenses, but also at the use of Java. What strategy is Oracle using for auditing Java?

They’re approaching Java differently right now. It’s taken them about ten years to try to monetize Java. Oracle’s being really smart about this, because they’re not auditing customers to get them to buy Java, but they’re worrying customers to get them to buy Java.


and the ending has punch:

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Give it five years when you’re stuck in Oracle’s ecosystem and Oracle needs money. Then they’ll start auditing. Right now, there’s so much buzz going on around Java, they don’t have to audit.

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#7 xclite   User is online

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Re: Java 11 license

Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:01 PM

Most of us who use Java day to day really aren't worried. My personal view is:

1. There may come a day when Oracle actually does something that makes the OpenJDK a second-class citizen where one has to pay for Java. I'll just swap stacks, and I don't think it's likely.
2. All of the other compelling JVM languages (Kotlin, Scala, Clojure) have alternative platforms (it's gross that they're javascript, but there are also native options for Kotlin and Scala).
3. Go is a compelling Java competitor in a lot of spaces where Java is useful

I know Oracle wants to monetize Java, but I really don't see how that can succeed when a lot of people *already* loathe Java and so many competitive languages exist that aren't monetized. It turns out nobody needs Java's most compelling language feature (IMO), which is the excellent concurrency library, because it's actually too hard to do well, and things like channels/actors get you a lot, for less work. The ecosystem is awesome, but not so much better than others that I'd pay for it.

The real potential money whales IMO are probably all the "enterprise" companies already doing other stupid things on Java that most of us find hilarious (Java EE, JSF, etc). There are many of them, and I bet they'd pay.

It's interesting to keep an eye on this behavior, because I'd probably prefer to get a head-start on "re-stacking" myself if Oracle made things scary, but for now I've felt comfortable.
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#8 Martyr2   User is offline

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Re: Java 11 license

Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:11 PM

View Postxclite, on 01 February 2019 - 11:01 AM, said:

1. There may come a day when Oracle actually does something that makes the OpenJDK a second-class citizen where one has to pay for Java. I'll just swap stacks, and I don't think it's likely.


Must be nice to just change the stack. However, I would love to see it if you were the head of IT at large Fortune 500 company, then tell the CEO how much it would cost. At that point 200k would seem like chump change. ;)

Edit: And honestly I think they are really just going to go after large corporate customers. It would be suicide to go after then 10's of millions of small developers with nickle and diming them. That would just trickle up into their larger corporate accounts and they would lose.

This post has been edited by Martyr2: 01 February 2019 - 12:13 PM

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#9 xclite   User is online

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Re: Java 11 license

Posted 01 February 2019 - 12:56 PM

View PostMartyr2, on 01 February 2019 - 02:11 PM, said:

Must be nice to just change the stack. However, I would love to see it if you were the head of IT at large Fortune 500 company, then tell the CEO how much it would cost. At that point 200k would seem like chump change. ;)/>


Well, if you're violating the license, you're violating the license today. You already run that risk, today. This hasn't changed. This is unrelated to whether you build new software in Java because Oracle gets grabby.
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#10 Skydiver   User is offline

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Re: Java 11 license

Posted 01 February 2019 - 02:13 PM

So assuming I do want security updates for my users and servers, it looks like the price list varies from as high as $300 per processor per year to about $150 per processor per year based on this price list. And an Oracle Rep can start cutting my company a deal when I have more than 20,000 processors.

From my understanding with stuff I've overheard while my company was negotiating the price for our OWC servers which were running on VMs, the "processor" count was not based on the physical processors of the ESX host, but rather then number of processors allocated to each of the VMs. And furthermore, even if it was one core but hyper threaded to be two processors, it would be counted as two, not one.
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#11 xclite   User is online

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Re: Java 11 license

Posted 01 February 2019 - 02:29 PM

Why do you deploy the Oracle JVM to your users? In other words: why are JVM upgrades to versions that are supported not an option? In other other words: Being stuck on Java 8 is a bad idea.
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#12 Skydiver   User is offline

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Re: Java 11 license

Posted 01 February 2019 - 02:52 PM

I work in a health care company that has already suffered through a well publicized data breach. IT security pushes out patches monthly to the JRE (as well as Windows, .NET Framework, Office, Adobe, etc.) to desktops/laptops even how improbable exploiting a vulnerability is. The executives don't realize how disruptive this patching is because most of them are in Macs and iPads which only get patched quarterly.
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#13 Skydiver   User is offline

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Re: Java 11 license

Posted 01 February 2019 - 02:57 PM

As for why the JVM is on every desktop instead of just those who need it for their work, it is because there are only two base images for Windows machines: regular user and developer. They make no distinction between a regular user who needs to run a Java based app, and regular user who does not. I suspect that will change over the next few months like when they started taking away voice mailboxes from people who don't need or use their voice mailboxes.
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#14 xclite   User is online

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Re: Java 11 license

Posted 01 February 2019 - 04:12 PM

Sorry, my question wasn't "why do you deploy *A* JVM to your users", it was "why the Oracle JVM, instead of OpenJDK".

I'm also not sure if we're complaining about Oracle charging for their JVM being deployed, or Oracle charging to support a major version of the JVM that was released 5 years ago.
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#15 Skydiver   User is offline

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Re: Java 11 license

Posted 01 February 2019 - 05:36 PM

Simple answer: GPLv2. An NDA does not protect GPL'd software. Our company has a lot of contractors (and they turn over a lot). By the GPL definition, letting the contractors use the software is considered "distribution", since it has been distributed to them, they are supposed to get a copy of the source, or be able to ask for the source.

Personally, I would love to see the source code of all the crap stuff pushed out to all users. I've tried asking for access to source when they start complaining that something is not working, but I always get rebuffed being told that source code is need-to-know. (They even told me that I needed to change the permissions on my
git repos to minimum necessary. So much for sharing code openly.)
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