Is mathematics used more or logic used more in programming?

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54 Replies - 2174 Views - Last Post: 05 January 2020 - 12:48 AM

Poll: What is used more in programming? (2 member(s) have cast votes)

Does progamming use mathematics more or logic more?

  1. Mathematics (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Logic (1 votes [50.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

  3. No (1 votes [50.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

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#46 jon.kiparsky   User is offline

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Re: Is mathematics used more or logic used more in programming?

Posted 04 January 2020 - 11:41 PM

View Postmacosxnerd101, on 05 January 2020 - 01:36 AM, said:

What is a normal reader?


I know! I know! A normal reader is one that satisfies certain properties pertaining to scalability and additivity, and assigns a strictly positive real number to each vector in a vector space over the field of real or complex numbers—except for the zero vector, which is assigned zero.

Did I get it right?
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#47 macosxnerd101   User is offline

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Re: Is mathematics used more or logic used more in programming?

Posted 04 January 2020 - 11:42 PM

Posted Image

It should really say "Jon" in this case, though.
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#48 modi123_1   User is offline

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Re: Is mathematics used more or logic used more in programming?

Posted 04 January 2020 - 11:44 PM

Damnit Bobby!

There is getting to be a significant amount of nutter showing up in this butter, I'll tell you what.
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#49 noviceFedora   User is offline

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Re: Is mathematics used more or logic used more in programming?

Posted 04 January 2020 - 11:45 PM

View Postmacosxnerd101, on 04 January 2020 - 11:36 PM, said:

What is a normal reader?


View Postmacosxnerd101, on 04 January 2020 - 11:36 PM, said:

We have Computer Science folks, Math folks, Business folks, Engineers, and "normal people." I am having trouble understanding what constitutes a "normal" person in your mind. Can you make this notion precise? Is this a populated set?


A normal person or reader would be someone who is not a mathematician, programmer, computer scientist and a business person. I think this should have been clear from the context.
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#50 macosxnerd101   User is offline

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Re: Is mathematics used more or logic used more in programming?

Posted 04 January 2020 - 11:48 PM

Quote

A normal person or reader would be someone who is not a mathematician, programmer, computer scientist and a business person.


So are engineers normal people then?

Also, intro books are generally written for folks with no prior experience (i.e., non-programmers).
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#51 jon.kiparsky   User is offline

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Re: Is mathematics used more or logic used more in programming?

Posted 04 January 2020 - 11:56 PM

View PostnoviceFedora, on 05 January 2020 - 01:45 AM, said:

A normal person or reader would be someone who is not a mathematician, programmer, computer scientist and a business person. I think this should have been clear from the context.


There are plenty of books on programming written for the lay reader - the "normal" reader in your argot. In fact, there's a whole series called "X For Dummies" which, although using a derogatory term, announces its purpose on the cover. O'Reilly did a number of books under the heading "Head First X", which are characterized by an excess of graphics, terrible design, and no assumptions of mathematical competence on the part of the reader.

If you're looking for books on programming for "normal readers" you'll find plenty of them.

Be warned, however, that they can only take you so far, because, as we've already said, there's not a lot you can do in programming without doing some math, whether you like it or not. And this probably goes a long way to explain why they're not generally assigned as textbooks - because people teaching classes typically like to assume that they're laying a foundation for some further progress, so they don't want to artificially limit their students by their choice of text.

I suppose it'd be worth asking, just what exactly are you hoping to achieve as a programmer? Do you want to work as a software engineer, or are you just taking a required class? If you want to be a programmer, what sort of work would you like to do?
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#52 noviceFedora   User is offline

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Re: Is mathematics used more or logic used more in programming?

Posted 05 January 2020 - 12:09 AM

View Postmacosxnerd101, on 04 January 2020 - 11:48 PM, said:

So are engineers normal people then?

Also, intro books are generally written for folks with no prior experience (i.e., non-programmers).


They would be included but I missed them, but why do you have so much problem understanding this from context?

View Postjon.kiparsky, on 04 January 2020 - 11:56 PM, said:

There are plenty of books on programming written for the lay reader - the "normal" reader in your argot. In fact, there's a whole series called "X For Dummies" which, although using a derogatory term, announces its purpose on the cover. O'Reilly did a number of books under the heading "Head First X", which are characterized by an excess of graphics, terrible design, and no assumptions of mathematical competence on the part of the reader.

If you're looking for books on programming for "normal readers" you'll find plenty of them.

Be warned, however, that they can only take you so far, because, as we've already said, there's not a lot you can do in programming without doing some math, whether you like it or not. And this probably goes a long way to explain why they're not generally assigned as textbooks - because people teaching classes typically like to assume that they're laying a foundation for some further progress, so they don't want to artificially limit their students by their choice of text.

I suppose it'd be worth asking, just what exactly are you hoping to achieve as a programmer? Do you want to work as a software engineer, or are you just taking a required class? If you want to be a programmer, what sort of work would you like to do?


I'm not interested in working, I want to learn programming to become self-reliant in diagnosing computer problems, identifying malware and writing my own tools for my purposes. Those books you mentioned for lay readers should be enough to get by seeing that most of the source code I came across rely heavily on symbolic logic and very little of it requires math.

View Postmodi123_1, on 04 January 2020 - 11:44 PM, said:

Damnit Bobby!

There is getting to be a significant amount of nutter showing up in this butter, I'll tell you what.


You should commit suicide by banning yourself.
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#53 macosxnerd101   User is offline

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Re: Is mathematics used more or logic used more in programming?

Posted 05 January 2020 - 12:09 AM

Quote

They would be included but I missed them, but why do you have so much problem understanding this from context?


My point is this- how many folks are really learning programming, if they aren't intending on doing computer science, programming, math, engineering, business, or some other science?


Quote

You should commit suicide by banning yourself.


This thread has more than run its course, and I will be closing it. You are *way* out of line here, and these types of comments are *NOT* tolerated on Dream.in.Code.

This post has been edited by macosxnerd101: 05 January 2020 - 12:10 AM

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#54 modi123_1   User is offline

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Re: Is mathematics used more or logic used more in programming?

Posted 05 January 2020 - 12:13 AM

View PostnoviceFedora, on 05 January 2020 - 01:09 AM, said:

View Postmodi123_1, on 04 January 2020 - 11:44 PM, said:

Damnit Bobby!

There is getting to be a significant amount of nutter showing up in this butter, I'll tell you what.


You should commit suicide by banning yourself.

Consider this your only warning before you wear your welcome out here.
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#55 Skydiver   User is offline

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Re: Is mathematics used more or logic used more in programming?

Posted 05 January 2020 - 12:48 AM

View PostnoviceFedora, on 05 January 2020 - 02:09 AM, said:

I'm not interested in working, I want to learn programming to become self-reliant in diagnosing computer problems, identifying malware and writing my own tools for my purposes. Those books you mentioned for lay readers should be enough to get by seeing that most of the source code I came across rely heavily on symbolic logic and very little of it requires math.

I used to believe this too when I was teaching myself programming back when I was 10. Even when I 13 and using my computer to solve my linear algebra and trigonometry homework and letting the computer do all the "arithmetic" for me, I still believed that computer programming was all symbolic logic and didn't really involve any mathematics. When I was 15 and doing 3D graphics on a C-64, I was still thinking, "well, someone else solved all the math problems for projecting 3D points unto a 2D surface on paper first, and I just wrote the code to translate that process into something the computer will do for me for my game. This computer programming thing is not really that hard. The hard part was understanding the math that someone else figured out."

Then when I was 16 I stumped by why code for trying to find game passcode patterns on floppy disks was running slower and slower the more sectors I had to inspect. At first, I thought that I just wasn't taking advantage of the sector arrangements on disk and so I was doing a lot of waiting for the sector to come back around. I spent weeks learning about hard drive timings and how to adjust them, but no avail. When I started simulating everything in memory, my code was still slow!!! WTF?!?!?! Then I learned the hard lesson by doing a poor man's complexity analysis: my "symbolic logic algorithm" for finding patterns was using something like an O(N3) approach. If only I'd done the math... (Or had known about these books by this guy named Knuth -- the downsides of living in a 3rd world country in the early 80s, and there was just the beginnings of this thing called CompuServe but required dollar$$$ to use.)

So yes, learning logic and imperative programming will get you so far until you hit a brick wall. Then it's time to up your game by understanding math and seeing how it fits back in. As a funny aside, I didn't hit any big O algorithmic issues with my 3D game because I didn't know I had re-invented a priority queue and a oct-tree without knowing what they were, and why they worked so efficiently. Yes, you can get lucky like I did where I managed to re-invent the right wheels for what I needed, but when the luck runs out you'll need something to be able to do a systematic approach to finding a solution. Just like the case of my 3D game, I got lucky that someone else had already solved the projection problem. I just needed to translate it into code. If I didn't have access to that solution and had to figure it out myself, then my 3D game would have looked more like the Pole Position or Wing Commander series of games with scaled images/sprites to represent different distanced objects instead of a more accurately scaled objects like in X-Wing or F-15 Strike Figher.
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