the debt is now 25 trillion and deficit over 1.2 trillion

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#1 DarenR   User is offline

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the debt is now 25 trillion and deficit over 1.2 trillion

Posted 07 May 2020 - 10:15 AM

so i can remember back to the old days when the gop was all about the deficit and debt blaming obama for the huge debt but now that they are in charge it mysteriously doesnt matter any more.

key facts:

Bush 
8 years
started with a 1.2 trillion surplus
left with -10.6 trillion debt  (corrected to 15.1 trillion see below under obama)
left with -1.1 trillion deficit


recession

obama
started with -10.6 trillion debt and found the gop and bush conveniently forgot to add wars on the books at -4.5 trillion
which means bush actually spent 15.1 trillion
started with -1.1 trillion deficit


 8 years
left -19.3 trillion debt      +4.2 trillion debt
-485 billion deficit    - around 650 billion deficit


trump
started with -19.3 trillion debt    
-584 billion deficit

current  in little over 3 years
-25 trillion debt      + 5.7 trillion debt
-1.2 trillion deficit   + 750 billion deficit



obviously numbers are roughed in

i did a quick look at historical debts and deficits and every single modern president (kennedy to now) shows that the gop spends so much money and then blame democrats for the huge debts.

look im not a democrat or a republican but clearly 1 party is 1000000x better at the economy and spending than the other party.

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#2 ge∅   User is offline

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Re: the debt is now 25 trillion and deficit over 1.2 trillion

Posted 08 May 2020 - 07:26 AM

The problem with spendings which go against the "survival of the fittest" or "nature will provide" principles is that they are expenses which seem inherently wasteful to the right wing. It's a cognitive bias at this stage, it's like an optical illusion that you can't unsee.

Sometimes even smart people can't process that spending more now could mean spending less later, and the fact that capitalism is relatively short-term doesn't help. Advocating for prevention or public health care is so hard. And, to my surprise, it's even the case for contact tracing: the WHO repeated over and over that although contact tracing seems expensive (OK, I didn't know that), it's a lot less expensive than locking down a country and pausing its economy. Apparently, some country leaders have a hard time computing this...

When I listened to Trump in the press conferences/interviews, it seems to me that he is on this kind of line. When he dismantled the task force it really felt like he was saying "I have had enough with your whining, I don't want to hear about it, let's get back to work" as if the task force was wasteful and looking away would make the problem it was tasked to handle vanish to. Now I don't really know why he wanted to abrogate Obama Care, but it's probably the same reasoning: it's costly. What really puzzles me as a French dude is that, in a democracy, having the population pay for their health is ultimately the same thing as having the country pay for it, with the only difference that a country can negotiate (indeed, drugs cost a lot less to France than they cost to the USA).
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#3 DarenR   User is offline

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Re: the debt is now 25 trillion and deficit over 1.2 trillion

Posted 08 May 2020 - 07:36 AM

I can understand where you are coming from but the current gop doesnt understand economics -- well not in the past 50 years-- it is really evident in all the gop controlled states -- they are last in everything
healthcare, jobs, money, education...

the main problem that i can see is that the gop are all about capitalism while bashing liberals -- that is until it fails then all of the sudden the gop wants hand outs case in point all the huge corporations who want bailed out every time they screw up.

liberals on the other hand embrace both capitalism and socialism by this i mean they like making money however they also know that at some point something may happen so the want a safety net which is forethought.

our country when run by republicans has a history of going in the shitter--- that is no joke
when run by democrats it flourishes.

take in mind though that today's republicans were yesterday's democrats.
starting the early 20th century, there was a party shift of ideals.
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#4 jon.kiparsky   User is offline

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Re: the debt is now 25 trillion and deficit over 1.2 trillion

Posted 08 May 2020 - 07:55 AM

It's certainly true that in modern times Republicans have been terrible on the economy. This is news only to Republicans, who seem to believe their own propaganda.

If I were more cynical than I am, I would suggest that this incompetence is actually tactical, and that Republicans have figured out ways to gain short-term sugar highs from their policies while deferring the long-term pain for their successors to deal with. But that would be an awful cynical thing to suggest, and just because it's what's always happened is no reason to be cynical and think it was intentional. I'm sure that it's better to ascribe the absolute failure of the policies championed by the anarchist death cult known as the Republican Party to their intellectual bankruptcy, and not to assume they have any particular evil intent.
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#5 DarenR   User is offline

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Re: the debt is now 25 trillion and deficit over 1.2 trillion

Posted 08 May 2020 - 08:03 AM

Im not a democrat or a republican and even i can see which party is good economically and which isnt.

what gets me are the following values of the gop:

pro-life but they actually mean pro-birth because once a child is born they dont give 2 shits about it.
examples: always trying to take away welfare and food from the poor
how many kids have died in cages and not a peep
have literally stated that it's ok if people die to the virus as long as the economy is good
ect.

100% about capitalism unless the company fails then they want bailed out by socialism
examples: recession gm, ford, chrysler, banks

100% about rule of law unless it applies to them
examples: protesting wearing masks, killing people on the streets
limiting types of firearms


i could keep going but you get the point

This post has been edited by DarenR: 08 May 2020 - 08:04 AM

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#6 ArtificialSoldier   User is offline

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Re: the debt is now 25 trillion and deficit over 1.2 trillion

Posted 08 May 2020 - 10:27 AM

Quote

When he dismantled the task force it really felt like he was saying "I have had enough with your whining, I don't want to hear about it, let's get back to work" as if the task force was wasteful and looking away would make the problem it was tasked to handle vanish to.

If this is referring to the coronavirus task force, the day after he said he was going to start winding it down, he reversed himself. He tends to do that, because he doesn't think anything through and just says whatever he's considering.
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#7 DarenR   User is offline

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Re: the debt is now 25 trillion and deficit over 1.2 trillion

Posted 08 May 2020 - 10:50 AM

yes he has a habit of doing what Fox tv says he should do and when people come in masses to bitch then he changes his mind.

to put it simply-- the man is a moron
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#8 jon.kiparsky   User is offline

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Re: the debt is now 25 trillion and deficit over 1.2 trillion

Posted 08 May 2020 - 11:44 AM

Again, a cynical person could wonder whether this idiocy is to some degree tactical in nature. By the end of a given week, this Nutless Wonder will have taken every position on every issue, which means that no matter what position someone likes, he'll have taken it. And if his final decision (or, I should say, his most recent final decision) isn't the one that someone likes, or if it isn't the one that he likes at the moment, he'll blame it on someone else.

Of course, anyone who has ever been a child will recognize these tactics, but apparently his fans don't mind it.
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#9 ArtificialSoldier   User is offline

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Re: the debt is now 25 trillion and deficit over 1.2 trillion

Posted 08 May 2020 - 12:53 PM

I honestly don't think he has a plan, at all. Really, I think he doesn't concern himself at all with long-term planning outside maybe some business deals, maybe the deals he does he enjoys doing because the entire thing can be broken down into short, easy to understand tasks that don't take much time. Make phone calls, meet with people, talk about what they want and what you want, see if you can come to an agreement. I don't think he has any desire at all to do any planning that's for more than about a week.

That's not to say he's not fairly good or successful at his specific game, there are definitely things he does which shows that he's self-aware. For example, any time he needs to say something crazy or inflammatory, he always phrases it in a way that people can't say he said it. "Many people are saying" or something like that. I feel like he learned those lessons from lawsuits against him, but that's just a guess. He definitely likes to blur the lines, and maybe taking every position is part of that short-term strategy.
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#10 ge∅   User is offline

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Re: the debt is now 25 trillion and deficit over 1.2 trillion

Posted 08 May 2020 - 02:40 PM

Or maybe is he simply senile. I mean he is 73 years old, he is as old as Bill Clinton or George W.Bush.

Some people are pretty sharp at that age, other people are legumes. Where does Trump lie on that spectrum?
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#11 ArtificialSoldier   User is offline

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Re: the debt is now 25 trillion and deficit over 1.2 trillion

Posted 08 May 2020 - 02:43 PM

Between sharp and legume, I think he's somewhere around mushroom.
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#12 Skydiver   User is offline

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Re: the debt is now 25 trillion and deficit over 1.2 trillion

Posted 08 May 2020 - 05:45 PM

LOL! Mushroom!

That reminds me of my favorite phrase from the 80's and early 90's: "Mushroom management style". It's when you feed your employees shit and keep them in the dark.
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#13 jon.kiparsky   User is offline

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Re: the debt is now 25 trillion and deficit over 1.2 trillion

Posted 08 May 2020 - 10:38 PM

I dunno. I mean, the guy is not brilliant, for sure. Incurious, monumentally ignorant, and possessed of (and by) a self-regard which is astounding both in its scope and in its utter lack of justification. He is also apparently untroubled by any hint of morals, ethics, social graces, manners, or charm. As far as anyone can tell, no human being has ever touched his genitalia without being paid handsomely for their services, and it's easy to see why nobody would ever want to. He also has racked up a staggering number of credible accusations of sexual harassment, assault, and outright rape. He's a liar, habitually and possibly compulsively so, and not by any means a skilled one. He's lazy to the point of self-harm, and apparently incapable of walking a quarter of a mile. He is absolutely incompetent as a businessman, to the point of serving as a benchmark for incompetence. Bear in mind, we are talking about someone who is the single biggest loser in the history of American business, or the single biggest tax cheat, or possibly both. And also, and this cannot be said often enough, a man who managed to go bankrupt running a casino. And as I have noted elsewhere, his face looks like an experiment in transgenics gone horribly wrong.

There is literally nothing good about this man. He is ugly in every way that it is possible for a human being to be ugly, and in some new ways that have never yet been seen. He is an insult to humanity, his very existence is sufficient to disprove the God Hypothesis, because any self-respecting god, on seeing this monstrosity, would have smote himself in despair, to see what his work had come to.

But stupid? I don't think he's particularly stupid. I mean, just consider the list of shit that he's managed to get away with. He's got to have some degree of animal cunning to him. Someone who was legitimately stupid would have sunk without a trace long ago. He's always been just smart enough to find much smarter people than himself who could keep him out of trouble, and good enough at manipulation to keep them serving his interests over his own for far longer than anyone would have believed possible, and to keep them from cutting him off at the balls when they were no longer useful to him or he to them.

All that being said, I agree entirely that he has no plan here. When I say his dishonesty is tactical, I don't mean that he has any political goals at all, or any idea of what would be required to achieve them if he did have any, or how he'd know he'd achieved them if he did manage to do so. What I mean is instead that this sort of complete disregard for the very idea of truth, the head-spinning mendacity that has been so comprehensively documented, the mastery of what Harry Frankfurt summarized under the highly technical term of "bullshit", is something that he does not because he's too stupid to tell the truth, but because it works for him. It always has, and it seems it always will. I don't think he's smart enough to know why it works for him, or to have devised this as a strategy, but he seems to have figured out that it does work, and that's all the smart he needs to be.
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#14 DarenR   User is offline

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Re: the debt is now 25 trillion and deficit over 1.2 trillion

Posted 09 May 2020 - 09:21 AM

I dont know-- i think he has russian mob ties which is possibly why people do a 100% turn around on him from calling him evil to brilliant without losing a breath. I mean the dude literally praises everything russian and when he has "lunches" with opponents , the very next day they are allies? look at his lawyer who said he was a mobster--- he hung out with epstein and epstein died under his watch-- makes you wonder
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#15 h4nnib4l   User is offline

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Re: the debt is now 25 trillion and deficit over 1.2 trillion

Posted 11 May 2020 - 07:30 AM

When I was a kid, we had a cocker spaniel named Joe. Joe was a simple animal with simple tastes, in the way of dogs. He liked meals, he liked treats, he liked his toys, and he hated being left behind when the humans left. He wasn't particularly smart as far as dogs go, but he was trainable. For example, we kept a small bell hanging from the back door down to a height that he could reach and taught him to ring the bell whenever he needed to go outside.

One day, Joe and I were playing with one of his chew toys. At some point, I got the toy from him and hid it behind me on the couch. Joe wasn't allowed on the couch, so at this point his options were limited and he quickly gave up. I became distracted and started paying attention to something else, until I heard the bell ring at the back door. My Pavolvian response took over and I immediately got up to let Joe out. He sat by the back door until I opened it, and then ran over to the couch, jumped up and grabbed his toy, and then ran off with it. The whole family processed what had happened and burst into laughter. I had just been outmaneuvered by our dog.

Does this make Joe a mastermind? Probably not. Does this indicate that he has pattern recognition and problem solving abilities beyond what I would have previously ascribed to him? Perhaps. If Joe was another human from whom I was trying to keep the toy, would a similar technique have worked? That's an interesting question in the context of Donald Trump. I don't think you'd have to spend much time around Trump before you'd start writing him off as a delusional idiot. I also think that we're naturally inclined to make certain assumptions about humans, even in the world of the rich, that would put one at a disadvantage with Trump. Joe might very well have genuinely needed to go to the bathroom, and only noticed that his toy was free as I opened the door. He didn't have nearly as much of a problem with shitting in the living room as I would have, so that would have been an attractive trade-off to him. Whether Joe genuinely outmaneuvered me by being more shrewd than I gave him credit for, or just valued his toy more than not shitting in the living room, in the end the outcome was the same. Joe also didn't care if he made me trust his requests to go outside somewhat less, but that doesn't mean that that's because he reasoned that we still had to let him out in order to keep our floor shit-free. Joe was a simple animal, and he had much more intelligent animals around him taking care of things like that.
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