Why so much PHP?

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33 Replies - 1881 Views - Last Post: 20 November 2020 - 03:00 PM

#1 random Goose   User is offline

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Why so much PHP?

Posted 25 October 2020 - 05:00 PM

There are so many PHP job offers in my country. This is just don't make any sense. I just looked on it, it's not that hard(at all), maybe there is some additional complexities with real-world application of PHP. But it can't be that bad, definitely it is a lot easier than some other languages. - but I don't see them that much at all(as job offering)! This is beyond my comprehension, if you able to post job offering on php using PC, chances are you can learn it by your self. Exactly opposite thing is more sensible, - the harder and demanding language - means more complexities involved, more time and effort required to learn - less people able to master it, means - more demand on systems programming languages! This is just insanity. Something is broken here. :blink:

*Please pardon my bad English I'm from old-cold Europe-land.

This post has been edited by random Goose: 25 October 2020 - 05:04 PM


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Replies To: Why so much PHP?

#2 Skydiver   User is offline

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Re: Why so much PHP?

Posted 25 October 2020 - 05:10 PM

It's because everybody assumes that a web application being hosted on Linux must be written in PHP.

I've currently got a pet peeve against a plugin app that says I can write any type of web app and just drop it into it's web directory, and the plugin will run it. I was really excited because I was going to implement the web part in .NET Core. *sigh* The plugin goes and looks for index.php. WTF?!?!? Apparently web app == PHP based web app.
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#3 xclite   User is offline

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Re: Why so much PHP?

Posted 25 October 2020 - 05:36 PM

PHP has three things going for it that are hard to beat:

1. It is supported everywhere. Every web host will run your PHP for less than a cup of coffee per month.
2. It is approachable (in part because all web hosts support it). You don't install shit, you just edit a .php file and watch it rerender.
3. It is a first mover - it's been around forever, in some really garbage incarnations, but that means that today, it is more mature than it was, with web frameworks in abundance, and a large install base.

I think the only use case I'd accept for PHP is small projects that need to get done fast and cheap and barely touched ever again, but there are a ton of those projects, old and new, even if people took my advice :)
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#4 random Goose   User is offline

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Re: Why so much PHP?

Posted 26 October 2020 - 12:39 AM

Quote

1. It is ... everywhere.
2. It is... sticky.
3. It's being around forever.


Sounds like Tuberculosis. Everyone just accepted its existence...because it always being everywhere. Silently, industry grows around it like melanoma on redhead fat man in freckles.
...hmm, maybe I should take it more seriously.

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It's because everybody assumes that a web application being hosted on Linux must be written in PHP.

I suspect lot of the time that people who recruit don't really know enough to specify anything at all, why not leave the tool to choose to an expert? Just say\write something like- "I have this, it must work, do whatever." - like in engineering... "I don't care, You have a degree - you fix it". But no, lang X on the thing Z and only, with a list of this new fancy buzzwords. I don't have much experience but this is general impression I get, so far, from few talks. Hit or miss. Very unprofessional from their side, just not serious.

This post has been edited by random Goose: 26 October 2020 - 01:22 AM

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#5 modi123_1   User is online

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Re: Why so much PHP?

Posted 26 October 2020 - 07:05 AM

View Postrandom Goose, on 26 October 2020 - 02:39 AM, said:

[...]Just say\write something like- "I have this, it must work, do whatever." - like in engineering... "I don't care, You have a degree - you fix it". But no, lang X on the thing Z and only, with a list of this new fancy buzzwords. I don't have much experience but this is general impression I get, so far, from few talks. Hit or miss. Very unprofessional from their side, just not serious.


Do not forget the business value of being a specific "shop". Having 15 websites written in a scattering of 15 different languages/frameworks/status of updates/etc is typically bad. It suffers from the lack of people being able to help cover, mismanaged update/patching, and could introduce a host of unnecessary other tech requirements that would not need to happen if things were more siloed.
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#6 xclite   User is offline

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Re: Why so much PHP?

Posted 26 October 2020 - 05:29 PM

I don't even know that this statement starts in the right place:

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I suspect lot of the time that people who recruit don't really know enough to specify anything at all, why not leave the tool to choose to an expert? Just say\write something like- "I have this, it must work, do whatever." - like in engineering... "I don't care, You have a degree - you fix it". But no, lang X on the thing Z and only, with a list of this new fancy buzzwords. I don't have much experience but this is general impression I get, so far, from few talks. Hit or miss. Very unprofessional from their side, just not serious.


A VAST majority of job postings are existing software. So they're not hiring you to say "build this thing in PHP" they're trying to hire because they have a scrappy thing in PHP that they need help maintaining/adding features to.
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#7 Martyr2   User is online

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Re: Why so much PHP?

Posted 26 October 2020 - 06:20 PM

View Postmodi123_1, on 26 October 2020 - 07:05 AM, said:

Do not forget the business value of being a specific "shop". Having 15 websites written in a scattering of 15 different languages/frameworks/status of updates/etc is typically bad. It suffers from the lack of people being able to help cover, mismanaged update/patching, and could introduce a host of unnecessary other tech requirements that would not need to happen if things were more siloed.


Oh how I wish that companies would stick to a few different languages/frameworks but the reality is that a ton of companies create solutions that a mishmash of languages and frameworks... even if it is bad. But that is in part because we developers have done it to ourselves. We find something fun and flashy and new and con companies into implementing them all. Then of course we bail for another job offer and leave the company to try and find others to fill the void.

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So they're not hiring you to say "build this thing in PHP" they're trying to hire because they have a scrappy thing in PHP that they need help maintaining/adding features to.


Not always scrappy. again it is just the fact that some devs, some time in the past, decided to build a project in PHP and then left. It could be scrappy, but I have also been that follow up developer who inherited advanced systems in PHP and asked to integrate it with other systems.

But to the OP, you see PHP everywhere because it is in fact everywhere (mainly because of the reasons xclite pointed out). It is the powerful force behind some of the largest web projects in the world. Large as in large adoptions. WordPress for instance is running about 1/3 of the internet. The second largest content management system (Drupal) is also PHP. The third largest is Joomla (also PHP).

Honestly though, despite the bad rap that PHP gets, it is a pretty awesome language. It is super flexible, can be extended, and doesn't contain a ton of bloat. Compared to something like ASP.NET and it is light years easier and I have used it to integrate some large web systems. I am even in the middle of a billion dollar company acquisition that needs web integrations between the acquiring company and the company being acquired. I am using PHP in those integrations to move data between the two companies.

If you don't know a web server side language yet, I would recommend PHP. With its recent upgrades, it has only gotten faster and better. They are turning it around from the garbage is use to be.
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#8 xclite   User is offline

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Re: Why so much PHP?

Posted 26 October 2020 - 07:14 PM

View PostMartyr2, on 26 October 2020 - 09:20 PM, said:

If you don't know a web server side language yet, I would recommend PHP. With its recent upgrades, it has only gotten faster and better. They are turning it around from the garbage is use to be.


Just to add the "hater" counterpoint (not that Martyr2 is wrong) - PHP has modernized well, but:

1. Why learn a web language that isn't really general-purpose, when Ruby has Rails plus a whole bunch of ops/orchestration presence, or more aptly Python, which has a great web ecosystem and is also dominant in data science, machine learning, etc?
2. Even though PHP has modernized, you're going to have to filter stuff deployed with the old versions if you want to avoid all the pits that made PHP an objectively dangerous language for years.
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#9 xclite   User is offline

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Re: Why so much PHP?

Posted 26 October 2020 - 07:39 PM

But just to be clear - it's not worth the energy to wail over all the PHP jobs out there. It makes sense that they exist. If you don't want one, don't learn PHP, don't apply to those jobs. This is true of like... all the languages. If you need a job and can't find one with your skillset, the PHP market exists.
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#10 no2pencil   User is offline

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Re: Why so much PHP?

Posted 27 October 2020 - 05:49 AM

View Postrandom Goose, on 25 October 2020 - 08:00 PM, said:

There are so many PHP job offers in my country. This is just don't make any sense. I just looked on it, it's not that hard(at all)


PHP has existed for decades
It's syntax is incredibly familiar to C
& to make money, why does work have to be inherently difficult?

What doesn't make sense to me, is if a company can make a million+ dollars with tools, why the elitst mindset to purposely make it difficult to program?
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#11 jon.kiparsky   User is offline

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Re: Why so much PHP?

Posted 27 October 2020 - 07:57 AM

I'm not sure what the actual question is here.

If the question is, "why is there so much PHP work?", the answer is "legacy code".
If the question is, "why are people writing new PHP?", the answer is "legacy minds".

If the question is, "why are people hiring others to write PHP instead of writing it themselves?", the answer is "because engineering is a full-time job, writing code is hard, and for a non-trivial project you want someone who dedicates their full time to making the thing work, so that probably means hiring someone to do it rather than trying to wear all of the hats and be president/CEO of the operation, product manager, and head of engineering all at once".
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#12 random Goose   User is offline

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Re: Why so much PHP?

Posted 27 October 2020 - 12:15 PM

The answers so kindly provided here have opened new perspectives for me. Very interesting and somewhat surprising. The real world now looks a bit more messy and poorly organized to me. :bigsmile:/>

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I'm not sure what the actual question is here.

Motive of my post was confusion, that there will be any problems with acquiring someone who can write\learn php at all in our "everyone can code age", as php looked like(relatively) simple thing to learn, but again I don't know details( about it). As I was a bit detached from industry (coding and learning in my free time only because I had great interest in that).

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because engineering is a full-time job, writing code is hard

I do understand that. Also still underappreciated (for stitching together world with waves and wires).

This post has been edited by random Goose: 27 October 2020 - 12:15 PM

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#13 CTphpnwb   User is offline

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Re: Why so much PHP?

Posted 17 November 2020 - 02:09 PM

View Postxclite, on 26 October 2020 - 09:14 PM, said:

2. Even though PHP has modernized, you're going to have to filter stuff deployed with the old versions if you want to avoid all the pits that made PHP an objectively dangerous language for years.

Incorrect.

PHP has modernized a great deal and while you might have to "filter stuff" on old projects, if those projects have been in development for a while, most of the "filtering" has been done at this point. For example, there should be no use of the old mysql extension. On newer projects there is no need for filtering. If you're using a framework like Laravel or Symfony and you have code that needs "filtering", somebody screwed up so badly that it most likely was deliberate.
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#14 xclite   User is offline

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Re: Why so much PHP?

Posted 17 November 2020 - 04:37 PM

We've been here, and the last time we had this debate you were proven wrong literally the following week by a tech article covering the dominance in install bases of the ancient versions of PHP that you claim nobody has to deal with. Get over it man, just like Java devs will still run into AbstractFactoryProxyFactory abominations, PHP devs will run the risk of encountering old, insecure PHP. It is simply incorrect to claim that there is no old PHP out there, to the point that it feels like you are arguing this in bad faith.
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#15 CTphpnwb   User is offline

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Re: Why so much PHP?

Posted 17 November 2020 - 06:11 PM

Nobody's claiming that there isn't old/bad code out there. I'm simply saying that PHP modernized a while ago at this point, and every day that passes adds more modern code to the installed base while old code goes off line and/or is modernized. I haven't done a study of this, so I can't say for sure that outdated code is completely phased out, but if you look at job postings for PHP development, they almost always require experience in a framework. People in those jobs will not be dealing with decades old code, except in rare instances, and even then, only for side projects that haven't been updated or replaced yet. Given this fact, arguing that ancient/terrible code exists in sufficient quantity to be a significant problem is arguing in bad faith.
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