Is the industry too fragmented?

Too many ways to do things adding complexity

  • (2 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2

29 Replies - 5726 Views - Last Post: 16 March 2019 - 05:41 AM

#16 ZachR   User is offline

  • D.I.C Head
  • member icon

Reputation: 3
  • View blog
  • Posts: 126
  • Joined: 15-June 08

Re: Is the industry too fragmented?

Posted 29 June 2008 - 08:34 PM

View PostSentry68, on 29 Jun, 2008 - 08:22 PM, said:

...I certainly don't have a lot of knowledge about coding and all the languages out there. I have however looked around for about the last 6 months, did a lot of reading and playing around in a few different languages before finally picking one to concentrate on (I picked C#).

C#, I am currently learning also. It's a great language!! xD

This post has been edited by ZachR: 29 June 2008 - 08:35 PM

Was This Post Helpful? 1
  • +
  • -

#17 Tom9729   User is offline

  • Segmentation fault
  • member icon

Reputation: 181
  • View blog
  • Posts: 2,642
  • Joined: 30-December 07

Re: Is the industry too fragmented?

Posted 29 June 2008 - 08:37 PM

View PostSentry68, on 29 Jun, 2008 - 11:22 PM, said:

I don't want to crush independent development or free enterprise, but really- it's just a confusing wide-open mess to a beginner as it is now, and I can't imagine if I were trying to decide which language was going to dominate the job market in the next 10, 20, or 30 years. And with all the talented developers creating new languages wholesale instead of working together to make a few unique, easy to use, and powerful solutions, it seems like the business competition is really killing true innovation, not promoting it.

I'm not going to reply to your whole post, but the thing about programming languages is that once you learn one it's not hard to pick up another. One should never try to learn a technology because "that's what's going to be used in the future". One should learn a technology to understand the concepts behind it so they can easily grasp future itinerations and incarnations of it. :)
Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#18 PixelCard   User is offline

  • D.I.C Head
  • member icon

Reputation: 48
  • View blog
  • Posts: 139
  • Joined: 20-June 08

Re: Is the industry too fragmented?

Posted 30 June 2008 - 02:30 AM

View PostTom9729, on 29 Jun, 2008 - 08:37 PM, said:

View PostSentry68, on 29 Jun, 2008 - 11:22 PM, said:

I don't want to crush independent development or free enterprise, but really- it's just a confusing wide-open mess to a beginner as it is now, and I can't imagine if I were trying to decide which language was going to dominate the job market in the next 10, 20, or 30 years. And with all the talented developers creating new languages wholesale instead of working together to make a few unique, easy to use, and powerful solutions, it seems like the business competition is really killing true innovation, not promoting it.

I'm not going to reply to your whole post, but the thing about programming languages is that once you learn one it's not hard to pick up another. One should never try to learn a technology because "that's what's going to be used in the future". One should learn a technology to understand the concepts behind it so they can easily grasp future itinerations and incarnations of it. :)


Absolutely agree. One platform that is quite popular today can easily disappear after some years, so, targeting to "will be used in the future" is really a wrong idea when it comes to programming languages.

Well, back to standards. Creating a unique standard for a specific thing will actually boost the need to create something different, as there always will be people that will complain about some of it's specifications or implementations. But the benefit of general specification for that standard is already the solution for many issues.
Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#19 Sentry68   User is offline

  • New D.I.C Head

Reputation: 0
  • View blog
  • Posts: 9
  • Joined: 25-June 08

Re: Is the industry too fragmented?

Posted 30 June 2008 - 07:27 AM

View PostTom9729, on 29 Jun, 2008 - 08:37 PM, said:

I'm not going to reply to your whole post, but the thing about programming languages is that once you learn one it's not hard to pick up another. One should never try to learn a technology because "that's what's going to be used in the future". One should learn a technology to understand the concepts behind it so they can easily grasp future itinerations and incarnations of it. :)


I'm sure you're right. In gathering advice about which language would suit my needs, I heard over and over- "It's not that big a deal. Most languages can do most things and once you learn one, it's easy to switch." But that seems to make the point that there are too many languages that do the same thing and are so similar you can easily switch between. Of course it's the shared concepts like object oriented and similar logic that make it easier to switch, but it still seems like overkill- too many choices without much difference, which just fragments the userbase unnecessarily. I'm sure you pro coders wouldn't care about this as much as I did, but I really worried about picking the 'right' language. (I almost started with VB because it was easy for me to understand initially, but I switched because I was afraid it was going to be terminated soon.)

And on the other hand, if I were planning on entering the field I would care very much which programming languages were getting more demand. If jobs for C# coders were the fastest growing in the market, it would make sense to know it well. (Not to mention, some are very expensive and I don't want to spend a lot of money on something I won't use :) ).
Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#20 PixelCard   User is offline

  • D.I.C Head
  • member icon

Reputation: 48
  • View blog
  • Posts: 139
  • Joined: 20-June 08

Re: Is the industry too fragmented?

Posted 30 June 2008 - 07:55 AM

View PostSentry68, on 30 Jun, 2008 - 07:27 AM, said:

View PostTom9729, on 29 Jun, 2008 - 08:37 PM, said:

I'm not going to reply to your whole post, but the thing about programming languages is that once you learn one it's not hard to pick up another. One should never try to learn a technology because "that's what's going to be used in the future". One should learn a technology to understand the concepts behind it so they can easily grasp future itinerations and incarnations of it. :)


I'm sure you're right. In gathering advice about which language would suit my needs, I heard over and over- "It's not that big a deal. Most languages can do most things and once you learn one, it's easy to switch." But that seems to make the point that there are too many languages that do the same thing and are so similar you can easily switch between. Of course it's the shared concepts like object oriented and similar logic that make it easier to switch, but it still seems like overkill- too many choices without much difference, which just fragments the userbase unnecessarily. I'm sure you pro coders wouldn't care about this as much as I did, but I really worried about picking the 'right' language. (I almost started with VB because it was easy for me to understand initially, but I switched because I was afraid it was going to be terminated soon.)

And on the other hand, if I were planning on entering the field I would care very much which programming languages were getting more demand. If jobs for C# coders were the fastest growing in the market, it would make sense to know it well. (Not to mention, some are very expensive and I don't want to spend a lot of money on something I won't use :) ).


I suppose that VB.NET will exist as far as C# exists, bacuse it is a key product of the Visual Studio suite and I don't think that it will be soon replaced. However, I can't guarantee that. There is no "right" language. There is a programming language you feel comfortable with. A developer learns a programming language based on own understandings. Every programming language is somehow in demand, however, there are languages that are more popular and less popular.

This post has been edited by PixelCard: 30 June 2008 - 07:56 AM

Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#21 polymath   User is offline

  • D.I.C Addict
  • member icon

Reputation: 54
  • View blog
  • Posts: 670
  • Joined: 04-April 08

Re: Is the industry too fragmented?

Posted 01 July 2008 - 08:39 AM

One thing we have to watch out for: If we try to merge the standards of several languages together to get some all-encompassing language (like if someone took all the c-based languages and merged them), everyone would freak out. The C++ .NET guys would battle with the C# .NET people for superiority, and then you would have the people who like plain old C best resisting the change to C++ syntax. Then there would be some Java people sitting in the corner laughing at them unaware that they're next. Then, you would have all the "aftermarket" libraries and their supporters trying to kill each other over whose library is best and most flexible. Then, the eventual victor of that battle would have to reprogram their library to meet the drastically different standards created by the merge.

Trying to defrag the industry now would be like implementing communism in a capitalist society. The competition right now is what keeps the languages evolving. Knowing different languages and libraries for different purposes is very useful in this case. Having multiple languages with their own little quirks is nice for us so that we can look at the languages and use them to the best of their ability. Besides, by merging/eliminating languages to standardize the industry would get rid of a lot of very good functionality unique to a certain language but impossible in another.

Thats my $0.02, adjusted for the US's 3.9 % CPI inflation, of course. For all you UK folks out there that'd be about a pence, and just to appease the euro's out there, its about €0,015

This post has been edited by polymath: 01 July 2008 - 08:40 AM

Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#22 Footsie   User is offline

  • D.I.C Regular
  • member icon

Reputation: 24
  • View blog
  • Posts: 370
  • Joined: 20-September 07

Re: Is the industry too fragmented?

Posted 03 July 2008 - 12:46 AM

I'm also not all that experienced (learning C#) but I am already starting to see that I can understand other languages a bit and how they are structured. (eg: Java, VB.net)

But I have to say, coming to the industry off a very low programming background, was very hard. It also bothered me how all the more experienced programmers said, "It doesn't matter the language you pick...". It does matter to beginners; you can't start out learning five different languages, you have to pick one. Oh, and add to that the server code you need to learn (MSSQL, MySQL) and throw in some web stuff (HTML, CSS) and some XML, the learning curve resembles a sheer cliff.

Of course once you get past the basic stuff (syntax, structure etc), you start to see the principles behind the language and that it is similar whatever language you look at.

As has been said already there are many good IDE's out there which you can use to create programs graphically but you're always going to need to tweak and clean the code that these create in order to build good programs.

I definitely think the industry is too fragmented, but this is slightly offset by the developer being open to accumulating new knowledge and incorporating new ideas and technologies - we need to be flexible.
It would be nice to know that the industry was working towards a (or a few) unified languages though.
Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#23 Tom9729   User is offline

  • Segmentation fault
  • member icon

Reputation: 181
  • View blog
  • Posts: 2,642
  • Joined: 30-December 07

Re: Is the industry too fragmented?

Posted 03 July 2008 - 11:48 AM

View Postpolymath, on 1 Jul, 2008 - 11:39 AM, said:

One thing we have to watch out for: If we try to merge the standards of several languages together to get some all-encompassing language (like if someone took all the c-based languages and merged them), everyone would freak out. The C++ .NET guys would battle with the C# .NET people for superiority, and then you would have the people who like plain old C best resisting the change to C++ syntax. Then there would be some Java people sitting in the corner laughing at them unaware that they're next. Then, you would have all the "aftermarket" libraries and their supporters trying to kill each other over whose library is best and most flexible. Then, the eventual victor of that battle would have to reprogram their library to meet the drastically different standards created by the merge.

C# shares very little with C.

C/C++ have many implementations on many different platforms. This is possible because we have things called "standards".

Creating a unified language just so newbies have to do a little less research (at the cost of the benefits of diversity) is a horrible idea. Doing so would be like merging every automobile manufacturer in the world and only letting them create one model, just to simplify car shopping. The "one size fits all" mantra is very often NOT the best solution. :)
Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#24 polymath   User is offline

  • D.I.C Addict
  • member icon

Reputation: 54
  • View blog
  • Posts: 670
  • Joined: 04-April 08

Re: Is the industry too fragmented?

Posted 05 July 2008 - 10:21 AM

Did i say i was in support of the "One Size Fits All" mantra?
Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#25 Tom9729   User is offline

  • Segmentation fault
  • member icon

Reputation: 181
  • View blog
  • Posts: 2,642
  • Joined: 30-December 07

Re: Is the industry too fragmented?

Posted 05 July 2008 - 10:48 AM

View Postpolymath, on 5 Jul, 2008 - 01:21 PM, said:

Did i say i was in support of the "One Size Fits All" mantra?


Quote

If we try to merge the standards of several languages together to get some all-encompassing language


I wasn't saying that you supported it necessarily, just that you brought it up. :)
Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#26 Martyn.Rae   User is offline

  • The programming dinosaur
  • member icon

Reputation: 553
  • View blog
  • Posts: 1,433
  • Joined: 22-August 09

Re: Is the industry too fragmented?

Posted 02 November 2018 - 03:26 PM

A truly great topic!!!

When I started programming, there were really only three main programming languages apart from assembly. There were FORTRAN, COBOL and ALGOL. In the UK there were about 5000 programmers most of which were very good at what they did. We all had to be to survive!! Now I shudder to think how many developers exist. Each developer is a 'specialist' (in their own eyes) in one of C, C++, VB, C#, F#, LISP, FORTH, Objective-C, Swift etc, and may or probably may not be familiar with the others. As for software design, we have many methodologies to choose from. How many flavours of LINUX can you think of. Standards do I believe, assist in going some way of ensuring that a developer can move 'relatively' easily from say Windows to LINUX or LINUX to Windows but they do not help in implementing code in a succinctly different programming language. (BTW can anybody explain to me why Apple has relied so heavily on Objective-C in the past as their main programming language. In my opinion is an absolutely abhorrent language developed by the devil and used to infuriate developers!).

So long as we have free enterprise and individuality, nothing will get better. I would love to see all software languages wiped from the surface of the earth forever and everybody be taught how to write elegant assembly programs - but it's not going to happen!
Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#27 hexagod   User is offline

  • 😂😂😂
  • member icon

Reputation: 25
  • View blog
  • Posts: 568
  • Joined: 29-October 16

Re: Is the industry too fragmented?

Posted 05 November 2018 - 03:10 PM

I still see most of the job postings are Java / C# / C++ / XAML / CSS / HTML / angular / (XXX).NET .. other technologies are rare

I don't think the fragmentation is THAT bad. I will say that after learning C# and VC++ ... I don't see why anyone would want anything other than C# or C++. I've tried JAva and didn't really like it. Everyone has their own preferences; there's no way we could consolidate languages. I don't really understand why new languages are needed, unless it's for a super specific usage. One cool thing I've noticed about C# is that it can be used to develop apps for everything from phones to PCs. Java is the same way but I'm not a fan of the syntax in java.. it just looks strange to me. C# and VC++ are more geometric and Symmetrical.

There's nothing wrong with having a variety of languages, and some of them :shuriken:/> definitely will not be used (other than for novelty) in 10 years.

This post has been edited by hexagod: 05 November 2018 - 03:14 PM

Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#28 ndc85430   User is offline

  • I think you'll find it's "Dr"
  • member icon

Reputation: 972
  • View blog
  • Posts: 3,831
  • Joined: 13-June 14

Re: Is the industry too fragmented?

Posted 16 March 2019 - 01:56 AM

I don't enjoy the baggage and boilerplate of Java either, but the JVM is a mature platform and many solid libraries have been written in Java. Thankfully, one can leverage all of that in other languages (in my case, Scala, Kotlin and Clojure).
Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#29 jeffindenver   User is offline

  • D.I.C Head

Reputation: 38
  • View blog
  • Posts: 180
  • Joined: 07-August 15

Re: Is the industry too fragmented?

Posted 16 March 2019 - 05:05 AM

I just looked over Scala and Kotlin, a tour of features. It was like watching a fireworks display, "ooooh," "ahhhh," "nicceee."

Whatever my next project is, I'm picking one.
Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

#30 ndc85430   User is offline

  • I think you'll find it's "Dr"
  • member icon

Reputation: 972
  • View blog
  • Posts: 3,831
  • Joined: 13-June 14

Re: Is the industry too fragmented?

Posted 16 March 2019 - 05:41 AM

It's certainly nice to be able to program in an immutable, functional style by default.
Was This Post Helpful? 0
  • +
  • -

  • (2 Pages)
  • +
  • 1
  • 2